| |
| ▲ | 827a 8 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I think its totally fair to be aggressive in pushing back against abstracts like "and hypothesize that this object could be technological, and possibly hostile as would be expected from the ’Dark Forest’ resolution to the ’Fermi Paradox’". There is zero testing of either the hypothesis that it is technological or that it is hostile. At best, the methodology he employs in the paper could be argued to test the hypothesis that its path through our solar system is synthetic and intentional; but that's it, and that's also not remotely close to what he said. | | |
| ▲ | druskacik 7 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Intentionality of the path is a good prerequisite of the object being technological, and its hostility is a possibility given the Dark Forest resolution is true (which we can't prove nor disprove). The sentence sounds a bit sensationalist but it seems scientifically valid to me, considering this is an area where we have little more than a bunch of unprovable hypotheses. | | |
| ▲ | gopher_space 7 days ago | parent [-] | | My favorite aspect of Dark Forest is that simply coming up with the concept also provides a resolution to the Fermi Paradox. | | |
| ▲ | krapp 6 days ago | parent [-] | | It isn't a good resolution, because it assumes all intelligent species in the universe must think and act according to the same rationale. But the one example of an intelligent species we're aware of (humanity) doesn't think and act this way - we've been blindly sending signals and probes out for decades now, and anyone observing our planet would probably notice obvious tech signatures. | | |
| ▲ | zeven7 4 days ago | parent [-] | | The ones who behave that way don’t last long enough to be witnessed by new civilizations like humanity, hence the darkness |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | Perenti 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | His argument regarding the trajectory into our Solar System is pretty flaky. It completely disregards Hopkin's computation of a "steep entry angle" and supposition that it comes from the "thick disk", instead assuming the incoming trajectories of interstellar objects are uniformly distributed across the celestial sphere. Mass distribution in our galaxy is decidedly anisotropic - most mass lies in the galatic plane. Loeb's estimate of the comet size is strange, when two observatories concur that the maximum size is around 10km. Look at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44713579 for links to real science. | |
| ▲ | thegrim33 7 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | "There is zero testing of the hypothesis" - He, as well as multiple unrelated others, also wrote papers detailing available options to intercept the object by re-purposing existing satellites from Mars or Jupiter, which would allow for data collection which would directly test the hypothesis. | | |
| ▲ | 827a 7 days ago | parent [-] | | Yes he did so: Poorly. His idea [0] to use Juno is a pretty bad one, given that it doesn't have the fuel to do what he suggests, and even if it did, one of its engines was damaged during a recent maneuver. And, at least according to Jason Wright, Loeb should have known all this but ignored it [1], because headlines. The ESA has a possibly more promising plan to divert a probe that's on its way to Jupiter right now [2]. So, again: If you're going to write "The feasibility of intercepting 3I/ATLAS depends on the current amount of fuel available from the propulsion system of Juno" one thing a real scientist would do is, idk, try to find out how much fuel it has left, talk to team members, etc. Instead, Loeb just does presumptive math, which ends up being wrong, but that didn't stop a Florida state rep from taking this "idea from a harvard scientist" and turning it into an official request of NASA, which now more real scientists will have to waste their time with [3]. [0] https://arxiv.org/pdf/2507.21402 [1] https://x.com/Astro_Wright/status/1951530225533329789 [2] https://www.newscientist.com/article/2490618-can-we-send-a-s... [3] https://x.com/RepLuna/status/1951379349128815062 |
|
| |
| ▲ | actinium226 8 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think if it was framed more as fiction it would get a better read. The title and the abstract suggest they take this possibility seriously, which is ridiculous. | | |
| ▲ | nprateem 8 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The fact you think aliens are ridiculous in an infinite universe is more ridiculous. | | |
| ▲ | quickthrowman 7 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Aliens existing is not ridiculous, the hubristic idea that aliens are visiting the solar system is what’s ridiculous, plus all the sensationalism around aliens from someone who should know better. | |
| ▲ | nkrisc 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Seems equally ridiculous to expect we’d ever actually see aliens in a spatially and temporally infinite universe. | |
| ▲ | actinium226 7 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's not that I find aliens ridiculous, I find it ridiculous to attribute 3I/ATLAS to aliens and I find it especially ridiculous that it's coming from Harvard. They have billions of dollars in endowment and this is what they waste their time on? Maybe the administration was right to pick a fight with them. |
| |
| ▲ | lloeki 7 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > if it was framed more as fiction At some point, however fact-based, every speculation is a form of fiction, so the line is blurry ... > The title and the abstract suggest they take this possibility seriously, which is ridiculous. ... but I'd say it's I think the idea is to take some serious and very realistic bits that have a vanishingly low probability ... > We show that 3I/ATLAS approaches surprisingly close to Venus, Mars and Jupiter, with a probability of ≲ 0.005% ... and then walk from there as rigorously as possible. As they say, "largely a pedagogical exercise". There's still a line between the hardest hard sci-fi story about a Boltzmann brain and a fact-based thought experiment computing probabilities for a giant marshmallow to spontaneously appear in the vacuum of space. | | |
| ▲ | actinium226 7 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Rama by Arthur C Clarke is a work of fiction, there's no blurry line there. > We show that 3I/ATLAS approaches surprisingly close to Venus, Mars and Jupiter, with a probability of ≲ 0.005% a) What does this even mean? If you throw a dart on a dartboard, anywhere it lands will have some probability. 1/200 doesn't seem that low. b) It's the height of intellectual laziness and chicanery to go from not-that-low-of-probability to 'aliens' They're free to make these claims. I'm also free to laugh at how ridiculous it is. Now, if this thing had some précise shape, or rotational speed, or we saw it adding or subtracting delta V, or if it did gravity assists from multiple planets (not just 'flew kinda close to a couple of them'), now that would be interesting. | | |
| ▲ | dlenski 7 days ago | parent [-] | | If you read the paper, you'll find there are many improbable occurrences, rather than just this one. > > We show that 3I/ATLAS approaches surprisingly close to Venus, Mars and Jupiter, with a probability of ≲ 0.005%
>
> a) What does this even mean? If you throw a dart on a dartboard, anywhere it lands will have some probability. 1/200 doesn't seem that low. Not 1 in 200 here. 1 in 20,000. |
| |
| ▲ | falcor84 7 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm actually unsure what you mean - what is that line? Why aren't both just exercises in probabilistic reasoning? |
|
| |
| ▲ | interstice 8 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I agree, I mean something like this only has to happen once in our lifetime for everything we know to change overnight. I’m not saying believe anything and everything at face value, but at least question whether immediate knee jerk dismissal of any idea you think you’ve seen before is actually considering the nuance of the specific thing in question or just a learned response. | |
| ▲ | mc32 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Because that supposition is sensationalist -in modern online parlance, clickbait. It’s as ridiculous as proposing that it could naturally be made of up of M&Ms or that monkeys built the ancient Egyptian pyramids. | | |
| ▲ | reaperducer 7 days ago | parent [-] | | it could naturally be made of up of M&Ms That's silly. It's made up of Milky Ways. |
| |
| ▲ | timuckun 8 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | He is the boy who cried wolf at this point. Every interstellar object is (oops I mean could be) alien artefact. Also he raised a bunch of funds to dig one up under the ocean and got nothing. | | |
| ▲ | tlb 8 days ago | parent | next [-] | | When and if alien life is discovered, there’s a high chance the discoverer will be someone who’s spent their career searching for it, rather than someone just stumbling across ironclad proof one fine day. I’m inclined to let those searchers speculate in public. If society’s rule is that you can’t even speculate about X until you have proof, it will hold back science significantly. History has many such examples of forbidden speculation leading to long delays. | | |
| ▲ | exe34 8 days ago | parent [-] | | Any idea why he gets so much pushback, when string theorists get a pass? Is it because "alien tech" is more easy to understand as a concept than Calabi-Yau manifolds? | | |
| ▲ | s1artibartfast 7 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I think it comes from a place of insecurity. people get sensitive about it because all astronomy is pointless and arbitrary, so someone having outlandish fun while doing it runs the risk of highlighting this fact. | |
| ▲ | 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | busssard 7 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | because of UFO Conspiracy Theorists. When someone says Alien in a serious context, most people immediately associate it with UFO nutjobs. String theory has not really made its debut in the conspiracy crowd afaik.
I think "Quantum-___" has done so, especially with the "collapse of the wavefunction through the observer" it has so many esoteric people raving. String theory is so meaningless to the normal person. |
|
| |
| ▲ | King-Aaron 8 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | There's been very few interstellar objects he's claimed as alien, in fact only one - and for onomua (or however it was spelt) he also said the most likely outcome would be a natural object. His expedition to recover metal spheroids from the ocean floor was a fascinating one which garnered a lot of support and I believe still had value in devising methods to recover impact materials from underwater. So really it's the same thing, he gets a lot of aggressive pushback online for mentioning 'aliens', but generally speaking nothing he says or does is actually that baseless. |
| |
| ▲ | quickthrowman 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Being repeatedly sensational about something like aliens will make people annoyed after a while, see the boy who cried wolf, etc. | | |
| ▲ | DennisP 7 days ago | parent [-] | | Though we should also bear in mind that the wolf in that story eventually showed up. |
| |
| ▲ | 8 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
|