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| ▲ | phito 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | You forgot the enormous learning curve of understanding how browsers work and how to write proper code in Ladybug that doesn't waste the maintainers´ time. Last time I tried, I couldn't find a website that worked with it. Where do you even begin contributing to such a large, complex, very much WIP project? The barrier to entry is daunting. | | |
| ▲ | barkingcat 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | When it comes to larger projects, first: - you don't need to understand the whole in order to help the kind of bugs you can start with are like : - this icon is a bit weird, it's off centre by 2px - how do I add 2 pixels to this icon? either by moving it or by changing the underlying image asset? if I'm moving it, what is the subroutine that paints it? if I'm changing the image asset itself, where is it stored? (is it in a packed store? or is it just a plain file, etc) - when I click this button, trace the pathway - it's supposed to add to history and turn blue. is it doing that? etc. For large projects, start super small and work your way out from there. | |
| ▲ | therein 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >Last time I tried, I couldn't find a website that worked with it. That was the case for me last time I tried it as well, which was a few months ago. Tried it again yesterday and I could load many pages. Could even render complex real life pages like YouTube. I recommend anyone to build it themselves. It is a very simple and smooth experience. | | |
| ▲ | phito 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Amazing, going to try it again right now. I had also tried a few months ago. |
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| ▲ | saagarjha 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Pick a site that almost works on it and then fix it to fully work? | |
| ▲ | paddim8 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | You don't have to implement some big new feature. I found a layout rendering problem when I tested it on my own website and could quite easily go and fix it without having any prior experience with browser development. |
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| ▲ | perching_aix 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Why the commanding tone? | | |
| ▲ | net01 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | English isn't my first language; sorry about that :) | | |
| ▲ | Henchman21 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Your English seemed perfect to me, including the tone. Some people wilt at the mere suggestion that they do something. | |
| ▲ | newdee 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Thank you for your helpful comment. I’m compiling it right now :) |
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| ▲ | newdee 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why the tone policing? This isn’t helpful. Whereas parent comment was to the point and linked to a helpful resource. Give people the benefit of the doubt and assume good intent. | | |
| ▲ | perching_aix 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I did assume good intentions and even gave them the benefit of the doubt: that's why I asked them why they were using a commanding tone and said nothing else. They clarified that indeed, their intentions were good and so being rude and sounding commanding wasn't the intent, and that was the end of that. Why do you have to turn this into something bigger? It was a done topic. I also disagree that this isn't helpful. * For one, they're now aware that they come off as commanding when they write like this. They now know they should look up why that is (if they care), and how to alter their language accordingly. This should serve them well, since it makes their use of language more in line with their intentions, and prevents them from receiving rude / more involved meta responses from those who don't assume good intentions or aren't willing to hear them out like I did. It should also prevent them accidentally causing reputational harm to the projects and organizations they're trying to support this way. Second, since I kept it brief and minimal, I avoided other people asking about this not so nicely and not so straightforward. Could have turned into an ugly flamewar. Speaking of, I do not understand why some people have it so out for "tone policing". It feels like an overreaction, a grand backwards swing in response to supposed "moderation overreach / censorship". Admittedly very in vogue these days, but cultural standards exist for a reason. I refuse to be forced to decide between the two extremes of overpolicing and no policement at all. I do also appreciate the value of just letting moderation tools and moderators do their job, but I do still have some - increasingly faint - hope that with some people, communication is also a viable, or even the preferable way - as it was in this case. * And I further disagree that being helpful in terms of information content or effect would be mutually exclusive with all this, or would even be related. Helping alone doesn't make a helpful person, particularly if helping isn't their explicit intention. |
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| ▲ | Timwi 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I did actually watch a friend compile and run it, and we tried it on a couple of simple web pages and were impressed with the results! However, there are two barriers to me building it myself and submitting PRs. The first is that it's not officially supported to build or run on Windows, so I'd have to get familiar with WSL first or set up a dual-boot environment. The second is that it's written in the obsolete and unusable language of C++. I would have loved an opportunity here to get into Rust or something, but C++ has proven itself hazardous to my mental health, so I'm staying away from it. | | |
| ▲ | emilbratt 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I love Rust, but I do not like how people are rust evangelists and look down on everything else. That is not how we in the Rust community look at things. Now, with that out of the way.
Andreas has been very clear about the reasons why C++ is the chosen language.
He has years of experience with it along with writing browsers. Im paraphrasing here, but he has said that the web evolved around the era of OOP and C++ is the OOP language of that era. Including statements on how C++ fits nicely with the OOP styles of web specs. | |
| ▲ | robin_reala 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There’s always the option of contributing to Servo if you’re interested in Rust and browser engineering. | |
| ▲ | jeroenhd 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | For the WSL part: that's one command in powershell/cmd and then a download from the Microsoft store. You won't find it challenging, there's not much more to it than that in 99% of cases (and if you do run into issues, there are probably better alternatives to trying to fix WSL anyway). As for C++, Ladybird uses very modern C++ that makes it substantially easier to write reasonably safe code than the C++ of yore. Still, as much as I would like to see the world move to safer languages, C++ is everywhere. Every major browser is written in it. It's not "unusable" in the slightest (though I certainly understand not wanting to learn C++ as an outsider at this point in time, it's a quite boring language in comparison and the C++ job market probably won't let you make use of modern language features that might make it interesting). I would love to live in a world where projects with security risks like web browsers would "just" use Rust instead of C++ but you'll have to convince the people building the browser to spend their own time or their bosses' time to learn Rust first, and that's a tough sell. There's Servo if you want to contribute to an open source browser in Rust. It looks like it can certainly use the help it you compare its development speed with Ladybird. | |
| ▲ | xdfgh1112 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Unusable yet people have written a browser in it? | | | |
| ▲ | rs186 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don't know which bubble you are in, but C++ is nowhere near obsolete status. As much as want Rust to be adopted widely, that still hasn't happened, despite small-scale effort to sprinkle it in various projects. | |
| ▲ | skrebbel 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > The second is that it's written in the obsolete and unusable language of C++. Oh come on. There's nicer ways to say "I'm not good at it". It's OK you know, you can't be good at everything. Just don't make it other people's fault. | | |
| ▲ | tormeh 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Nobody's good at C++. I've written C++ and even got to the point where I felt I had things under control, but tbh that's just delusion and hubris. | | |
| ▲ | apelapan 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | If you look at it that way, nobody is good at anything. True perhaps but not a very useful stance. Millions of people have built meaningful software with C++ over the past several decades. It is everywhere and it mostly works OK. Of course, C++ is not necessarily the best choice for everything or anything. But it is a mostly reasonable choice for lots of things in 2025, just like it was in 1995. | | |
| ▲ | SleepyMyroslav 4 days ago | parent [-] | | There are different levels of confidence in junior programmers code in different languages. For C++ it is one of the lowest possible. If thousands of HN readers suddenly decide that they need to start their 10+ years learning of C++ with immediate contribution to the Ladybird project it would be not really helpful, right? | | |
| ▲ | apelapan 4 days ago | parent [-] | | It would be a weird kind of bad situation, if literally thousands of juniors with little to no experience/understanding of programming simultaneously start learn-as-you-go contributing C++ code for Ladybird. In the perhaps more plausible situation that two or three people with a reasonable foundation in CS and/or a bit of professional programming experience decide to learn C++ in order to help Ladybird, I think it would work out quite fine. | | |
| ▲ | SleepyMyroslav 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I had to think carefully if I would ever agree with 'plausible situation' at any point of my career. And the answer is no. If they really needed 2-3 ppl they would have adjusted their sponsorships/donations plan and picked up those ppl full time. There are costs of bigger teams and wider contributor networks that are rarely advertised. But ofc what can I know about browsers, I am just a gamedev. From my PoV (studio tech director) in custom game engines juniors mostly do acts of wanton destruction in the name of curiosity. And then leave for better compensated industries anyway. In my opinion folks inciting random contributions from webdev crowd unfamiliar with C++ are not helping. And those who are familiar should know better than to do random drive-by features. |
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| ▲ | desdenova 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm pretty good at C++. By using a very simple technique, I've managed to write 0 bugs in it in the past 15 years. | | |
| ▲ | whytevuhuni 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I assume that simple technique is to not write any C++, despite being pretty good at it? | | |
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| ▲ | samtheprogram 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Hah, the same could be said about Rust. And I’d disagree with both. |
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| ▲ | 0points 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Those are two you-problems. |
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