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DonHopkins 3 days ago

Solaris just wasn't the same after they switched from XView Sun Deskset Environment.

https://donhopkins.medium.com/the-x-windows-disaster-128d398...

>The “drag-and-drop” metaphor tries to cover up the Unix file system, but so little of Unix is designed for the desktop metaphor that it’s just one kludge on top of another with little holes and sharp edges popping up everywhere. Maybe the “sag-and-drop” metaphor is more appropriate for such ineffective and unreliable performance.

>A shining example is Sun’s Open Windows File Manager, which goes out of its way to display core dump files as cute little red bomb icons. When you double-click on the bomb, it runs a text editor on the core dump. Harmless, but not very useful. But if you intuitively drag and drop the bomb on the DBX Debugger Tool, it does exactly what you’d expect if you were a terrorist: it ties the entire system up, as the core dump (including a huge unmapped gap of zeros) is pumped through the server and into the debugger text window, which inflates to the maximum capacity of swap space, then violently explodes, dumping an even bigger core file in place of your original one, filling up the entire file system, overwhelming the file server, and taking out the File Manager with shrapnel. (This bug has since been fixed.)

>But that’s not all: the File Manager puts even more power at your fingertips if you run it as root! When you drag and drop a directory onto itself, it beeps and prints “rename: invalid argument” at the bottom of the window, then instantly deletes the entire directory tree without bothering to update the graphical directory browser.

David Rosenthal (author of ICCCM) summed it up nicely in this leaked email:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44050165

That's right, he's a great down-to-earth guy (but he can still write like a passionate punk rocker -- see below), and there's a wealth of interesting thoughtful stuff on his blog. I've known him since the days of the X10 / X11 / NeWS window system wars. He worked with James Gosling on Andrew at CMU and NeWS at Sun, and on X10 as well as X11 and ICCCM, and he implemented the original X10 compatibility layer that was in NeWS 1.0, before X11 was a "thing".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_S._H._Rosenthal

One of my favorite classics is his Recreational Bugs talk [1989] by "Sgt." David Rosenthal (author of the ICCCM, developer of the Andrew Window Manager, X10, X11, and NeWS, employee #4 and chief scientist at Nvidia):

https://blog.dshr.org/2018/05/recreational-bugs.html

[...]

Here's David Rosenthal's notorious Sun Deskset Environment flame that some rogue leaked to the Unix-Haters mailing list (inspiring the Unix-Haters Handbook's X-Windows chapter), in which he poignantly concluded:

"It's like having a Roy Lichtenstein painting on your bedroom wall.":

[...]

    PS - I notice that someone filed a bug today pointing out
    that even your example of dropping a mail message on CM
    doesn't work if CM is closed.  That's a symptom of the kind
    of arrogance that all the deskset tools seem to show -
    they're so whizzy and important that they deserve acres of
    screen real estate.  Why can't they just shut up and do
    their job efficiently and inconspicuously?  Why do they have
    to shove their bells and whistles in my face all the time?

    They're like 50's American cars - huge and covered with
    fins.  What I want is more like a BMW, small, efficient,
    elegant and understated.  Your focus on the whizzy demos may
    look great at trade shows, but who wants to have their tools
    screaming at them for attention all the time?  It's like
    having a Roy Lichtenstein painting on your bedroom wall.
pjmlp 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

NeWS was one thing that made Solaris special and not yet another boring UNIX clone.

I only consider NeXTSTEP and Irix as well on this box, from all big iron UNIX.

anthk 3 days ago | parent [-]

Irix DE it's just a tweaked MWM and Motif tools. Nothing you couldn't get with EMWM, XMToolBox for the menu and some additions.

https://fastestcode.org/emwm.html

No vector icons for XFile, but at least you can set SGI-like ones once you extract the TGZ in the correct place.

And some tools like the Fluxbox-Blackbox like slit from this guy:

https://luke8086.dev/netbsd-on-thinkpad-380z.html https://github.com/luke8086/pmdock

pjmlp 3 days ago | parent [-]

Yeah, but I am speaking about the out of the box experience, and culture of people using those systems, not the do your own distro kind of thing that nowadays plagues Linux.

Or all the other UNIX clones that were basically UNIX System V (or BSD derived) + twm, latter CDE, with the only visible difference being the vendor's name.

anthk 3 days ago | parent [-]

Well OTOB Irix wasn't that 'user friendly', even the installer required some thinkering. Irix 5.23 and up were a bit more fair to the user.

https://www.tech-pubs.net/wiki/IRIX_101

n4r9 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> like a BMW, small, efficient, elegant and understated

I'll give you elegant, maybe. Perhaps you were thinking of a Mini Electric?

shrubble 3 days ago | parent [-]

Early BMWs were like that. Look up the ~1979 320i for instance.