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latchkey 4 days ago

My statement certainly had some implied subtext that I can expand upon now...

If you write tests, you don't need a specialized library for debug logging.

Run the test, and set a breakpoint in your debugger.

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danudey 4 days ago | parent [-]

This is only mildly offtopic, but I wonder if the following is true:

Software developers who...

1. Experienced actual instruction on software development;

2. Learned to write software in C/C++/FORTRAN/Pascal/whatever; or

3. Spent a lot of time in more niche situations like system programming, embedded programming, enterprise systems, etc.

...are familiar with using debuggers as part of their workflow to inspect internal state and diagnose. In contrast, developers who...

1. Were entirely self-taught;

2. Grew up on interpreted languages (JS, Python, PHP, Perl, etc); and

3. Generally tend to write smaller, self-contained projects

...tend to just add debug logging and re-run the program.

I definitely have used debuggers in the past, but as someone who almost exclusively has written in interpreted languages (or languages where the write-compile-run loop is fast, e.g. Golang), my habit is to add debug logging to more places to validate internal state as the program runs, rather than attaching a debugger and inspecting specific things manually.

Either way, I think it's two separate approaches and I think in different circumstances there are definitely benefits to one or the other. In most of my Python scripts it's faster to add a `print(f"variable is {variable}")` than it would be to attach a debugger; also for a small script that's only going to run a few times, or run very occasionally, writing unit tests is often overkill because often the entire script is effectively a unit.

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latchkey 4 days ago | parent [-]

I don’t know if you’re trying to make assumptions about me or you, but I am those 3 things.

It is definitely different approaches and both can achieve the same goals, but having started with your approach and then learned IDE’s, debugging and writing tests, I can from my own experience say that tests and debuggers are the way to go when it comes to building long term stable applications, especially in shared environments.

As for speed to attach a debugger? Lol, it is one button click in a proper IDE and the speed and utility of figuring out the solution is faster. What I am hearing from you is that you’re unwilling to put the time into learning/using the tools. Or maybe you’re just stuck in your own headspace, many developers get that way, it is why we have editor wars and whatnot.

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danudey 3 days ago | parent [-]

> I can from my own experience say that tests and debuggers are the way to go when it comes to building long term stable applications, especially in shared environments.

Ah, so there's the distinction for me - I don't build long-term stable applications in shared environments, I build small utilities or one-offs in private or occasionally shared environments.

> As for speed to attach a debugger? Lol, it is one button click in a proper IDE and the speed and utility of figuring out the solution is faster.

For me, I haven't used "a proper IDE" for most of my projects - again, because the nature of my projects has never required it, nor are any of my projects long-term enough or complex enough to bother configuring anything. I just open a default configuration of vim, type what I need to, and then I'm done.

> What I am hearing from you is that you’re unwilling to put the time into learning/using the tools.

Maybe more like "I don't see any benefit setting up an entire IDE and learning how to use the debugger to diagnose a 200-line Python file that runs in 0.8 seconds.

> Or maybe you’re just stuck in your own headspace, many developers get that way, it is why we have editor wars and whatnot.

I would turn this around - because I don't use an IDE that I've spent time configuring and customizing, and learning how to use the tools it provides to be more efficient, I'm less invested in which editor I'm using. I certainly get used to certain editors so I don't just randomly select a text editor each time I need to write something, but I would argue that the time and effort spent integrating yourself with a specific IDE and configuration makes someone more likely to "editor wars" than not doing so.

Fundamentally, I understand the core benefits of using a debugger in the abstract; I see why and how it's useful, especially if you're able to do things like attach a debugger to a running process and inspect an error case as it's happening rather than having to reproduce it locally (or e.g. in a unit test). That said, I cannot see any way in which my workflow would be improved by that level of integration with an IDE when my current approach - useful debug logging - only has to be added to a program once, is useful for debugging this problem and any other down the road, and works whether I'm editing code locally in VS Code or SSH'ed into some remote machine running a cut-down version of Vim.

	▲	latchkey 3 days ago \| parent [-]
		> I don't build long-term stable applications in shared environments, I build small utilities or one-offs in private or occasionally shared environments. If your work is that minimal and the code that simple, then pulling in a third-party library just to wrap printf seems like overkill. And just to clarify, at least in IntelliJ, there's zero debugger config. You set a breakpoint, hit play on your test (or 200 line code), and that's it. Couldn't be easier. > I cannot see any way in which my workflow would be improved by that level of integration with an IDE Totally get where you're coming from, everyone has their own workflow. But to me, your bigger issue is a limiting mindset. I'm a tinkerer at heart, always curious to see what new tools can unlock. Even if something doesn't seem useful at first, I've found it's often worth exploring, sometimes the biggest leaps come from unexpected places. It is a big reason why I put down my ego and went and consulted at Pivotal Labs for almost a year. It was a cult, they did real pair programming, it was uncomfortable for my ego in every way, but once I did it, I was so glad I did. I learned so much. Really shifted my perspective on things.