>An actual specification layer isn't any simpler than the execution layer.

The point of separation of concerns isnt to keep the simple layer separate from the complex one. It's to simplify the whole thing by only addressing one concern per layer.

Unit tests are often a pain in the ass to read because they are a mess of implementation and specification details. No separation.

>You can't solve the problem in that way. Because, from a high-level stakeholder's perspective, the whole point of the people below them (whether programmers or UX designers or anyone else) is to fill in those details in a way that matches their own hazy expectations

If you crystallize the hazy expectations on their behalf and skip feeding it back to them then you will often find out that "thats not what i meant" after the code is complete.

Those mistakes are expensive and avoidable.

▲

jonahx 4 days ago | parent [-]

Oh I understand the standard arguments. I just don't agree with them.

> The point of separation of concerns isnt to keep the simple layer separate from the complex one. It's to simplify the whole thing by only addressing one concern per layer.

With some caveats, I think this is just a fiction. There can be some value in having high-level tests and low-level tests, but not because it removes complexity. It can help with focus and priority. Which is a problem that can be solved in many ways.

> If you crystallize the hazy expectations on their behalf and skip feeding it back to them then you will often find out that "thats not what i meant" after the code is complete.

But this is exactly what they want you to do, and do well enough that "that's not what i meant" is not a big problem. They certainly don't want to read cucumber tests as a way of ensuring you're on the same page. They will tolerate rough, incremental prototypes, per the old agile advice, and this is probably still the best way of solving the communication gap problem.

	▲	MoreQARespect 4 days ago \| parent [-]
		>Oh I understand the standard arguments. I think the problem here is that you are substituting standard arguments for my arguments. >With some caveats, I think this is just a fiction. There can be some value in having high-level tests and low-level tests, but not because it removes complexity. Separation of concerns isn't about having "high level" and "low level" tests. You don't have "high level" views and "low level" views in MVC. You have views and controllers and you keep them separate because otherwise you have an old-skool PHP-like mix of SQL and HTML all over the place. That PHP style mess happens to most tests because the code that is intended to describe behavior is mushed up thoroughly with the code that attaches to the app and executes it. If you separate the concerns, the test becomes readable and even serves as a spec. >But this is exactly what they want you to do, and do well enough that "that's not what i meant" is not a big problem. The problem is rarely that they didn't say what they mean. The problem is that once you've built the thing or walked them through a crystallized user story it makes them rethink what was actually needed. In many cases I've walked stakeholders through user stories and they suddenly realized no new feature was necessary. >They certainly don't want to read cucumber tests Nobody does, but that's because cucumber tests have abysmal syntax and UX, not because the idea of readable spectests was intrinsically bad. Throwing away spectests as a concept because cucumber is bad is like throwing away programming as a concept because COBOL is bad. >They will tolerate rough, incremental prototypes Of course, which is not as expensive as a fully fledged app but way more expensive to build than crystallized user stories. I prefer the cheaper option.