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forty 5 days ago

It makes me sad that devs start relying on proprietary online services to be able to work. We have been lucky enough to have FOSS tools to do everything and not to have to rely on any specific service or company to work and some of us are deciding to become like Monsanto-addicted farmers who forgot how to do their jobs without something they have to pay every month.

brookst 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I remember being beholden to commercial (cough, pirated, cough) compilers and assemblers back in the day. FOSS is awesome but often lags because capital sees a chance to make money and can move faster.

It will change. There will be FOSS models, once it no longer takes hundreds of millions of dollars to train them.

pythonguython 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Do you mind sharing what industry you’re in where you can fully rely on FOSS? In my industry we’re dependent on MATLAB, Xilinx tools, closed source embedded software and more. To name a few industries: game devs might be stuck with unity, finance quant devs might be stuck with Bloomberg terminals, iOS app devs are stuck with apple’s tooling etc… this isn’t just an LLM problem IMO.

ozgung 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I think this is different. Yes, 3rd party tools and services are nothing new. Depending on 3rd party libraries is also a standard thing, although minimum dependency is generally considered a good practice. But all these services provide something you don't want to do yourself and are willing to pay. They all complement what you do, and don't replace your core competency.

Apple is your business partner, doing marketing and distribution for you, and shares its user base. Bloomberg terminals provide real time data and UI to non-technical finance people. Github provides you Git hosting service so you don't need to setup and maintain servers. MATLAB (although there are Octave, Python and open alternatives) sells numerical computation environment to non-CS engineers. Xilinx is sells its hardware and dev tools. Game devs use Unity because they want to focus on gameplay and not game engine development.

These are all the examples of Division of Labor. This time, however, you have to pay for your core competency, because you cannot compete with a good AI coder in the long run. The value you provide diminishes to almost nothing. Yes you can write prompts, but anyone, even a mediocre LLM can write prompts these days. If you need some software, you don't need to hire SW engineers anymore. A handful of vendors dominate the SW development market. Yes, you can switch. But only between the 3 or 4 tech giants. It's an Oligopoly.

If we have FOSS alternatives, at least we can build new services around them and can move on to this new era. We can adapt. Otherwise, we become a human frontend between the client and the AI giants.

forty 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's a good remark. As my sibling said, backend and web dev.

But indeed it always struck me that some developpers decided to become Apple developpers and sacrifice 30% of everything they ever produce to Apple.

I would argue that it might a bit different though, because when doing iOS development it's possible that you don't lose you core skill, which is building software, and that you can switch to another platform with relative ease. What I think might happen with LLM is that people will lose the core skill (maybe not for the generation who did do LLM-less development, but some devs might eventually not ever know other ways to work, and will become digital vassals of whatever service managed to kill all others)

yunohn 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Android also charges a fee for Play Store distribution, as do most platforms - not just mobile app ones. The cost of doing business on a platform does not mean no one should do it - like literally all other businesses.

unsupp0rted 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> and sacrifice 30% of everything they ever produce to Apple

In exchange for 500% more paid users

forty 4 days ago | parent [-]

The users would exist even if Apple did not exist wouldn't they?

unsupp0rted 3 days ago | parent [-]

No, they wouldn’t.

Apple largely makes paying users exist that otherwise wouldn’t be there.

forty 2 days ago | parent [-]

Sorry, I cannot argue with that.

aprdm 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

backend web services devops frontend javascript

just three possible examples

forty 4 days ago | parent [-]

Yes. Web is more and more debatable as as time goes though, there is more and more only one company providing the software to access the web :)

andxor 4 days ago | parent [-]

And it's open source.

oblio 4 days ago | parent [-]

It's a Cathedral, not a Bazaar, though.

epolanski 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It makes me sad that couriers start relying on third party wheeled machines like cars and motorbikes.

conradfr 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Do their motorbikes stop working in the middle of the week if they make too many deliveries or ask them to pay multiple the base rate for the remaining time?

hvb2 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You ignore the fact that there are many suppliers there with plenty of competition.

The 'take me from A to N' is a pretty broad problem that can have many different solutions. Is that comparable?

We can all see this end up in a oligopoly, no?

arvinsim 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think it's less about reliance and more about competition.

Sure, devs can still work without AI.

But if the developer who uses AI has more output than the one that doesn't, it naturally incentives everyone to leverage AI more and more.

forty 4 days ago | parent [-]

That's a big if. People might feel faster because there is more "movement", but it's not clear if overall they are actually signicantly faster (though everyone would like us to believe so).

And note that I objected online services, local LLM don't have the same issues.

epolanski 4 days ago | parent [-]

People who use it extensively may know whether it makes them significantly faster or not.

forty 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I assume they have an opinion on the topic, but it doesn't mean they are right (or wrong).

Think of driving a car. If the shortest path (in term to time of travel) is through traffic jam, and there is a longer path where you can drive must faster, it's very likely that most people will have the feeling to be more efficient with the longer path.

Also the slow down of using LLM might be more subtle and harder to measure. They might happen at code review time, handling more bugs and incident, harder maintainance, recovering your deleted DB ;)...

epolanski 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Apologies, but from antirez[1] to many other brilliant 1000x developers advocate for LLMs speeding up the process.

I can see the impact on my own input both in quantity and quality (LLMs can come up with ideas I would not come up to, and are very useful for tinkering and quickly testing different solutions).

As any tool it is up to the user to make the best out of it and understand the limits.

At this point it is clear that naysayers:

1) either don't understand our job

2) or haven't given AI tools the proper stress testing in different conditions

3) or are luddites being defensive about the "old" world

[1] https://www.antirez.com/news/154

forty 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

From your source

```

The fundamental requirement for the LLM to be used is: don’t use agents or things like editor with integrated coding agents. You want to:

* Always show things to the most able model, the frontier LLM itself.

* Avoid any RAG that will show only part of the code / context to the LLM. This destroys LLMs performance. You must be in control of what the LLM can see when providing a reply.

* Always be part of the loop by moving code by hand from your terminal to the LLM web interface: this guarantees that you follow every process. You are still the coder, but augmented.

```

Not sure about you, but I think this process, which your source seems to present as a prerequisites to use LLM efficiently (and seems good advice to me too, and actually very similar of how I use LLM myself) must be followed by less than 1% of LLM users.

forty 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I wish I had only antirezs working on my projects, and would for sure be much more confident that some significant time might be saved with llms if that was the case.

zelphirkalt 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

1000x developers, ahahaha! Come on now, this is too comical. Even 10x is extremely rare.

The deciding factor is not speed. It is knowledge. Will I be able to dish out a great compiler in a week? Probably not. But an especially knowledgeable compiler engineer might just do it, for a simple language. Situations like this are the only 10x we have in our profession, if we don't count completely incapable people. The use of AI doesn't make you 1000x. It might make you output an infinite factor of AI slop more, but then you are just pushing the maintenance burden to a later point in time. In total it might make your output completely useless in the long run, making you a 0x dev in the worst case.

eichin 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

We've known for decades that self-reported time perception in computer interactions is drastically off (Jef Raskin, The Humane Interface in particular) so unless they have some specifically designed external observations, they are more likely to be wrong. (There have been more recent studies - discussed here on HN - about perception wrt chat interfaces for code specifically - that confirm the effect on modern tools.)

hvb2 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

There's 2 problems there 1. 'faster' is subjective since you cannot do the same task twice without the second time being biased by the learnings from the first pass 2. While speed might be one measure, I've rarely found speed to be the end goal. Unless you're writing something that's throw away, you'll be reading what was written many times over. Long term maintainability is at odds with speed, in most cases.

epolanski 4 days ago | parent [-]

You're implying that LLMs make maintainability worst when the opposite could happen if you know how to use the tools.

zelphirkalt 4 days ago | parent [-]

But the tools are trained on tons and tons of mediocre work and will have a strong tendency to output such. Please share your prompts aimed at preventing mediocre code entering the code bases you work on.

So far almost no code I got from LLMs was acceptable to stay as suggested. I found it useful in cases, when I myself didn't know what a typical (!) way is to do things with some framework, but even then often opted for another way, depending on my project's goals and design. Sometimes useful to get you unstuck, but oh boy I wouldn't let it code for me. Then I would have to review so much bad code, it would be very frustrating.

stingraycharles 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Devs have been doing this for years. If Github goes down, it has a huge impact on dev productivity.

forty 4 days ago | parent [-]

Has it? We don't use GitHub in my company, but our self hosted Gitlab occasionally goes down, and while it prevents us from merging (including doing code reviews) and deploying code, it does not prevent us from doing most of our work (ie designing and creating software). It merely delays the moment when things are shipped.

If you meant goes down for good, then I'm sure it would be annoying for a few weeks for the FOSS ecosystem, just the time to migrate elsewhere, but there is not much GitHub specific we would really miss.

danielbln 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The very recent agentic open weights models seem to be shaping up, so if all fails you can host one of these yourself (if you have the vram) or host it yourself somewhere.

sneak 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We can and did work without it. It just makes us many times faster.

Nothing about using an LLM removes skills and abilities you already had before it.

14123newsletter 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

>Nothing about using an LLM removes skills and abilities you already had before it.

Funny story: The widespread of Knorr soup stock already made people unable to cook their own stock soup, or even worse, the skill to season their soup from just basic, fresh ingredients.

Source: my mom.

windexh8er 4 days ago | parent [-]

I'm always surprised when people buy vegetable stock. So many people I know cook "from scratch" with base ingredients like stock out of a box.

And just as with cooking: most people won't care - and the same goes with LLMs. It can be good enough... Less efficient? Meh - cloud. AI slop image? Meh - cheaper than paying an artist. LLMs to get kids through school? Meh - something something school-of-life.

I look around and see many poorly educated people leaning hard into LLMs. These people are confusing parroting their prompt output as knowledge, especially in the education realm. And while LLMs may not "remove skills and abilities you already had before it" - you damn sure will lose any edge you had over time. It's a slippery slope of trading a honed skill for convenience. And in some cases that may be a worthwhile trade. In others that is a disaster waiting to happen.

3836293648 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

For the industry as a whole it absolutely does. And for the individual it absolutely does kill your ability to do it unless you actually do practice.

And yes, the goal might be to only use it for boilerplate or first draft. But that's today, people are lazy, just wait for the you of tomorrow

epolanski 4 days ago | parent [-]

> And for the individual it absolutely does kill your ability to do it unless you actually do practice.

Just because you state it, it doesn't make it true. I could tell you that taking buses or robotaxis doesn't change a bit your ability to drive.

forty 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Depends how often you do drive. I can guarantee you that not driving absolutely affected my ability to drive (I can still drive but certainly not nearly as well as if I drove daily)

3836293648 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Are you seriously claiming that not driving has no affect on your ability to drive?

Taking a bus sometimes is fine, but that is missing literally the entire point that I made.

umbra07 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you don't use a skill, it atrophies.

Now, maybe that is the future (no more/extremely little human-written code). Maybe that's a good thing in the same way that "x technological advancement means y skill is no longer necessary" - like how the advent of readily-accessible live maps means you don't need to memorize street intersections and directions or whatever. But it is true.

brookst 4 days ago | parent [-]

I am terrible at computing sine and cosine, for sure. It doesn’t bother me.

zelphirkalt 4 days ago | parent [-]

On the surface, this comparison might hold, but when you look at software development as a craft, and therefore containing aspects of creativity and art, the comparison no longer holds.

brookst 4 days ago | parent [-]

Interesting take. So AI is the Ikea-ization of software, producing far cheaper / lower quality / less durable / more accessible product that is completely good enough for most people, but unacceptable to those who have the expertise to do it themselves, or the wealth to not care about price?

hoppp 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

My experience was that reviewing generated code can take longer than writing it from scratch.

There was research about vibe coding that had similar conclusion. Feels productive but can take longer to review.

the moment you generate code you don't instantly understand you are better off reading the docs and writing it yourself

yunohn 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Huh? We’re discussing the equivalent of tradespeople who need a high quality drill to work instead of cheap knockoffs or worse, no tools.