| ▲ | Animats 5 days ago |
| The diamond industry got into this mess by insisting that the best diamonds were "flawless". This put them into competition with the semiconductor materials industry, which routinely manufactures crystals with lattice defect levels well below anything seen in natural diamonds. The best synthetic diamonds now have below 1 part per billion atoms in the wrong place.[1] Those are for radiation detectors, quantum electronics, and such. Nobody needs a jewel that flawless. De Beers tried to squelch the first US startup to turn out gemstones in production by
intimidating the founder. The founder was a retired US Army brigadier general (2 silver stars earned in combat) and wasn't intimidated. That was back in 2011, and since then it's been all downhill for natural diamonds. De Beers later tried building synthetic diamond detectors. There are simple detectors for detecting cubic zirconia and such, but separating synthetic and natural diamonds is tough. The current approach is to hit the diamond with a burst of UV, turn off the UV and then capture an image. The spectrum of the afterglow indicates impurities in the diamond. The latest De Beers testing machine [2] is looking for nitrogen atoms embedded in the diamond, which is seen more in natural diamonds than synthetics. The synthetics are better than the naturals. Presumably synthetic manufacturers could add some nitrogen if they wanted to bother.
This is the latest De Beers machine in their losing battle against synthetics. They've had DiamondScan, DiamondView, DiamondSure, SynthDetect, and now DiamondProof. Even the most elaborate devices have a false alarm rate of about 5%.[3] [1] https://e6-prd-cdn-01.azureedge.net/mediacontainer/medialibr... [2] https://verification.debeersgroup.com/instrument/diamondproo... [3] https://www.naturaldiamonds.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/A... |
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| ▲ | Muromec 4 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| >De Beers tried to squelch the first US startup to turn out gemstones in production by intimidating the founder. The founder was a retired US Army brigadier general (2 silver stars earned in combat) and wasn't intimidated. Hahaha, this is amazing. All of the US ex-military I worked with was super chill but had zero tolerance for bullshit, I can't even imagine somebody trying to pull it off and thinking it's a good idea. |
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| ▲ | indymike 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | You'd be surprised how few people even read a resume before turning to intimidation - legal, physical, political or otherwise. It's amazing how often managers think they can bully someone, and then find out that their opponent discovered kryptonite a long time ago. | | |
| ▲ | FireBeyond 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Monster Cable went after Blue Jeans Cable, a small boutique audio cable manufacturer in Seattle, threatening basically patent-driven extortion and licensing. Except the guy that founded BJC was an ex-corporate lawyer. His response letter (https://www.bluejeanscable.com/legal/mcp/response041408.pdf) is full of zingers, but most appropriate for this exact point is this: > After graduating from the University of Pennsylvania Law School in 1985, I spent nineteen years in litigation practice, with a focus upon federal litigation involving large damages and complex issues. My first seven years were spent primarily on the defense side, where I developed an intense frustration with insurance carriers who would settle meritless claims for nuisance value when the better long-term view would have been to fight against vexatious litigation asa matter of principle... > If you sue me, the case will go to judgment, and I will hold the court's
attention upon the merits of your claims--or, to speak more precisely, the absence of merit from your claims--from start to finish. Not only am I unintimidated by litigation; I sometimes rather miss it. | | |
| ▲ | teytra 3 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Loved this: "RE: Your letter, received April Fools' day" | |
| ▲ | Muromec 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >Not only am I unintimidated by litigation; I sometimes rather miss it. Oh, this is just great. | |
| ▲ | morberg 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Thank you for sharing this, my smile got wider the more I read. |
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| ▲ | andrewflnr 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Probably because it works 99% of times you never hear about. |
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| ▲ | Animats 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Here's the story, from Wired, back in 2003.[1] [1] https://www.wired.com/2003/09/diamond/ | | |
| ▲ | McAlpine5892 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Jewels don’t appeal to me or my partner at all. De Beers diamonds are a scam. After reading this, those diamonds grown in Boston sounds so friggin cool though. The amount of technological innovation behind it is incredible. Maybe I’m just wooed by science and human innovation. Shoot, if I was in the unlikely fictional scenario where I even wore a diamond and someone asked about it, I would be THRILLED to get into the science of how it was grown in a lab. What a cool story. Instead of just going “yeah, thanks, it cost a fortune and three kids died pulling it out of the dirt”. | |
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| ▲ | kevin_thibedeau 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The nice thing about the DeBeers machines is that they will confirm you have a genuine synthetic diamond. |
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| ▲ | szszrk 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Do I understand that correctly: "natural diamond" businesses pushed hype towards purity of their product, yet now they can only prove it's and actual natural diamond by confirming it's much less pure than their "competitors"? Amusing. |
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| ▲ | jajko 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Good, de beers is highly amoral business and there is no way around it. Blood diamonds and lies around them, artificially elevating diamond prices, making up the classic PR campaign that somehow inserted equation wedding=big diamond into minds of mostly US population for few generations. When I see somebody with diamonds and check with them that they are naturals, its pretty clear what kind of person I am dealing with. To be kind and polite here, its not a nice evaluation and it ends up very precise. I let them know what's the general consensus on morality regarding those stones, its sometimes funny to watch their reactions and at least now they know something and can't anymore argue they didn't. What they do with that info is up to them. |
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| ▲ | cultofmetatron 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I wonder where these diamonds are laundered. probably some country with a comparatively high gdp that is a big time diamond exporter despite having zero diamond mines I imagine. | |
| ▲ | cantor_S_drug 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | China and Africa are destroying the DeBeers diamond cartel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7tGZzwe4mQ PS Question : Who is stealing the content idea from whom? Is it possible that the article author saw this video and decided to write abou it? | | | |
| ▲ | thebrain 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I do the same thing with friends who use IP TV that gets it's from a friend of a friend of a friend. |
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| ▲ | doctorpangloss 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I’m pretty sure the death knell for the industry is changing tastes. Who is going to innovate in marketing? Certainly this is an approach, get a bunch of nerds engaged with the product, co opted into marketing it. You’re quite literally storytelling. But something tells me that “CTO” is not the fashion industry’s most lucrative demo. And for better or worse, no matter how you’re making you’re diamond, you’re focusing on 18-45yo rich women seeking experiences, and I don’t see how the diamond’s origin, even if everything you say is 100% true, factors into the retail journey at Tiffany’s. |
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| ▲ | bbor 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | All right on, but your comment reminded me that they are innovating in the marketing space, or at least trying — last spring, they ran a sizeable ad campaign on Reddit for https://www.naturaldiamonds.com/natural-diamond-types-and-al... As someone who’s already cynical about the ”natural”(/extractive) diamond “industry”(/cartel), the points made on that site are hilarious and absurd — highly recommend a scroll for anyone interested in how desperate they are to attack the new tech. Just from that comparison page, my favorite argument is probably “lab grown diamonds are from (dirty, evil) India and China, whereas natural diamonds are from ~nature~”, although “lab grown diamonds are so perfect that they’re all the same grade, and therefore boring” is a close runner up. The fact that they’re now publishing a magazine devoted entirely to this topic tells me they haven’t slowed down, just improved their ad spend so that it’s not wasted on me! Something tells me there’s quite a mountain of financial instruments secured by the warehouses of diamonds they have to keep supply tight, so I can only see this ramping up in the short term. | | |
| ▲ | Ekaros 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Funniest thing I saw a few years was this: https://www.diamondstandard.co Commoditized diamonds.... In essence artificial products where multiple diamonds are packaged inside plastic container... Somehow making them more investible ala NFT or crypto... Not to forget fractional market with tokens... |
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| ▲ | amy_petrik 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The death knell for the industry is the redefinition of the unit of American society. The unit at the time of DaBeers smashing 1947 "Diamonds are Forever" campaign, in 1947, was the -family-. It wasn't too long after women's suffrage, and still women were expected to be barefoot and pregnant, after all, birth control wouldn't come for another 20 years. Families were the operative entity messaging targeted, and the campaign was successful because the diamond was a sort of foundation for the foundation of the family, the marriage, not dissimilar in spirit from long held human societal norms of dowries and such. The sexual and hippie revolution of the 1960s shook the whole thing up. Women didn't need families, there was birth control, women could work, a revolution carrying forth to the 1980s shark killer business woman to today where in fact many universities have become female majority. The modern unit of american society is the individual, not the unit, making the diamond an anachronistic echo of a once proud culture, now seen as a bit dated, a bit weird, a bit unsettling and paternalistic, instilling the same feelings in a person that an old Playboy magazine might. | | |
| ▲ | 1123581321 4 days ago | parent [-] | | No, the industry grew over that period as diamonds were increasingly purchased for more than wedding rings and stones on rings became larger and more ornate. Over this period, a wider variety of retailers began to sell jewelry, increasing accessibility and price variance. The social trend you identified, in correlation with others, increased available discretionary income which was good for the fashion industries. |
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| ▲ | bigyabai 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Like the parent comment says, there will still be demand for high-quality diamonds whether or not they're considered a luxury. It's more that the marginal utility of a diamond has plummeted, compared to cheaper and easily mass-produced iPhones or Labubu dolls. Hardly surprising that diamonds are unpopular to a generation of Americans who are overwhelmingly unlikely to ever own a house. It's not the 1950s anymore, and blue-collar workers don't want to piss away 3 months salary to buy a depreciating asset. It's really only marketable if you lie to the customer. |
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| ▲ | MengerSponge 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Nitrogen Vacancy (diamond) magnetometers are a relatively recent development. As I understand it, the substrate is typically formed via ion bombardment of synthetic diamonds |
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| ▲ | colonial 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Quoting myself from elsewhere, but I would like to make a legislation proposal: all natural gems must be marketed as "crude" due to impurities not present in their synthetic counterparts. This would end the De Beers cartel basically overnight by smashing the "appeal to nature" fallacy that "natural gem" marketing and pricing relies on. |
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| ▲ | jppope 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| who was the retired US Army brigadier general? |
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| ▲ | throwaway81523 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Carter Clarke. See this article: https://www.wired.com/2003/09/diamond/ | | |
| ▲ | culturestate 5 days ago | parent [-] | | For anyone else googling this like I just did, Carter Clarke Jr. is the Gemesis founder. Took me longer than I care to admit reading the Wikipedia page for Carter Clarke Sr. (also a brigadier general) who led a pretty interesting life of his own (e.g. leading the War Department investigation of Pearl Harbor intelligence failures) before I realized I had the wrong generation of Clarkes. |
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| ▲ | nkurz 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don't know anything about the industry, but I thought it would be a good test for the state of AI. I put Animats' comment and your question into DeepSeek R1 and it said (I think correctly) that the company was Gemesis and the retiree was Carter Clarke Jr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemesis. |
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| ▲ | Onavo 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I just found my new AI startup idea. |
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| ▲ | ycombiredd 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| [flagged] |
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| ▲ | cladopa 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Why hasn’t this been done already? First, it is way harder to do.Every imperfection introduces secondary effects. Second, the people that make those diamonds are not ashamed or hiding but believe on what they do. Leo Di Caprio for example invested millions in making synthetic diamonds that do not finance wars in Africa. New generations are proud of people not dying for getting their beautiful stones. lastly, diamonds, like gold, are very useful for science. In particular they are amazing semiconductors with incredible heat dissipation and small power loses. If we get better, less defects diamonds ,cheaper, power electronics will be revolutionised. | |
| ▲ | ballenf 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Your proposed engineered randomness goes against almost everything making lab grown diamonds popular -- pseudo mined diamonds would cost more than flawless ones and increasingly no one cares what DeBeer's exotic lab tests think. Your post didn't ring LLM to me, it just seemed disconnected from the article and market trends. What I'd pay more for is an exotic color or multicolor diamond (a diamond built around a ruby?). Or one that changed color depending on the lighting -- picture moonlight turning it a brilliant blue or purple (basically I want it to come from Middle Earth). Or one that glowed red in the dark. Actually, I wouldn't be the target for this, but I'd love it if they existed. | | |
| ▲ | anonymars 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Have you heard of Alexandrite? I came across it thanks to Elite Dangerous |
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| ▲ | heyjamesknight 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | barrkel 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | tomhow 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Please don't do this here. If a comment seems unfit for HN, please flag it and email us at hn@ycombinator.com so we can have a look. | | |
| ▲ | barrkel 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I understand where you're coming from, but there's also value in setting norms publicly, especially at times like these, at inflection points. The loud point and stare can have a bigger effect on behavior than the quiet disappearance of a message here and there. | | |
| ▲ | tomhow 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I know, and it's an ongoing and developing issue for us to manage and find ways of addressing, knowing that it's only going to get harder. Our position now (as always) is that the negative consequences of a false accusation outweigh the benefit of a valid accusation. We don't want to be a site that shames people or piles on. We can't really know what people are thinking when they post a comment, or why they might use a tool to generate or improve it. Downvoting and flagging are strong enough signals, and do enough to hide the comment if others agree that's what should happen, and that's what happened here. It's good to email us so we can see if there's a pattern of behaviour we need to know about so we can penalize or ban the account or take some other appropriate action once we can see the full picture. | | |
| ▲ | barrkel 3 days ago | parent [-] | | I understand. However, I interpret your statement as coming from your position: as a moderator, with a job to do as a curator of a community. How does the community learn what to flag? It's not about piling on. You can fix disruptive behaviour by picking off remarkably few individuals, but that behaviour is easy to classify. Everybody knows what a troll looks like. But you can't teach a community what is generally acceptable and unacceptable within the culture of the community without a conversation in public. Consider two forms of justice for a new rule: one day, it becomes illegal to smoke in restaurants. In the first form of justice, in the interest of avoiding pile-ons and vigilantism, secret police turn up at your home in the evening and confiscate your cigarettes, or fire you from your job, or simply disappear you. The right way to deal with smoking isn't to say anything in public; it's to inform your friendly secret police and they'll deal with it. They'll look for a pattern and they'll decide the punishment. The offender gets fixed. The decision isn't public, so it can't be criticized either. If a few visiting foreigners also get abducted because they didn't know what the norm was, well, tough. In the other form, justice must not only be done, but it must be seen to be done. The conversation happens in public. Everyone is empowered to teach everyone else about norms. A friendly word to the folks from out of town let's them know what's what. The community finds its own level of comfort for where the boundaries are. Not everyone is happy, but everybody can see what's going on. Now I'm not saying you're like secret police. You do however have a similar working model. You're not accountable to the community and you want to make decisions in private without any second-guessing. You mean well. But your tools are more suited to dealing with trolls than finding and socially enforcing community norms. I don't envy you. I would not like to be a moderator. Best of luck. | | |
| ▲ | tomhow 3 days ago | parent [-] | | > Now I'm not saying you're like secret police. You do however have a similar working model. You're not accountable to the community... We're nothing at all if not accountable to the community; our number one guiding principle in moderation decisions is to keep earning the trust of the HN community. Things like this can be blown up to seem as sinister as someone wants, including invoking imagery of "secret police" operating covertly. That's never how we've operated. Right from the time he took over HN, dang has gone to great lengths to explain moderation decisions and actions, and I follow his lead on that. There was a case a few weeks ago where I engaged publicly in conversation with the author and other community members about the perception that a post was LLM-generated, and other cases where I've commented in response to clearly-LLM-generated comments, and we'll continue doing that. All we're talking about right now is community members taking it upon themselves to publicly accuse a commenter of LLM-generated comments before we've had a chance to investigate. It falls into the same category as accusing users of "astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents, and the like" – which is explicitly against the guidelines. As I said in my previous comment, the harm caused by false allegations outweighs the benefit of valid allgations, and the established processes are perfectly adequate to deal with valid cases. |
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| ▲ | ycombiredd 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I subjected some of my own writing to an "AI-detector" and was surprised to find what a high percentage of AI I must have in my DNA. Joking aside, I have found myself recently using phrases and styles of turning a phrase and stopped myself asking, "since when do you say that?" Since I've spent countless hours talking to LLMs, that's when. I even had a multi-hour conversation with ChatGPT about my idea for "perfectly flawed" lab-grown diamonds, several months ago and was excited to finally find a place to talk about what I learned, hence the comment you attribute to being from an LLM. I'm probably not an LLM, nor did I generate a response for this thread using an LLM, but you've just made me really self-conscious about how now humans, or at least myself, have to be wary that we don't start talking like the LLMs that are supposed to be talking like us. | | |
| ▲ | barrkel 5 days ago | parent [-] | | If you want to hide the LLM tells better, you need more consistent combing. E.g. "hasn’t", "they’ve", "wouldn’t", "“natural” and “synthetic”" all use curly quotes, but other parts use straight quotes. Somebody tapping away at a keyboard will probably be consistent instead. Another big tell is the total overuse of antithesis. ChatGPT is cringy for this. "Not this, but that". I counted six instances of antithesis in your message. There were also three instances of hypophora, another beloved of essay generators. | | |
| ▲ | joshstrange 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The em dash use is also very telling. And before “I’ve been using em dash for a while”, no, they haven’t. This is the _only_ comment they’ve ever made that uses em dash. | |
| ▲ | throw310822 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | People, not sure you realised, but this thread is gold. Maybe even intentionally? You are debating over a message that imagines the consequences of generating progressively more natural-looking diamonds by adding them imperfections; you are claiming that the message doesn't look natural enough because it doesn't have the imperfections of a typed message (wrong quotes, wrong dashes). Fact is, with diamonds and intelligence we're moving to a Dickian scenario where progressively complicated and ineffective tests are needed to tell the artificial from the natural. And soon the Voight-Kampff test won't work anymore. | |
| ▲ | ycombiredd 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Christ almighty people, even the Notes app on my iPhone (frustratingly, when you're typing something destined to be pasted in a console or, apparently a comment on HN) will "correct" quotes to the squirrelly quotes and my dashes to em dashes. I never want them and when I find them troublesome I will programmatically remove them before pasting, but in this case I didn't think they would bother anything. I didn't think anyone would want to read the 12 pages or so I had written on the topic so I pasted as-is. I'm not using an LLM to write for me. Summarize for brevity at times, sure, but my thoughts are my own. (Punctuation, perhaps not. I've written about my frustration with unwanted "smart" punctuation and the principle of least astonishment elsewhere. It is frustrating.) If I thought you cared enough about my thoughts on synthetic diamond-making (from a non-domain expert) I'd post the entire thing for your reading pleasure, but I gather you're more interested in trying to make me look like I'm using an LLM to write my replies. Here, from my phone, directly into the comment field, I am certain there are no "tells" that the content may have been typed elsewhere and summarized for brevity. Already this is more time talking about something off-topic than I'd hoped for. I was genuinely excited that there was something topical that came up on this obscure synthetic diamonds topic I had written and thought extensively about, and rushed to share what I had hoped would come across as a palatable sized summary of such. (You might be surprised to read me admit that I can be overly loquacious.) I'll shaddup already but this tendency for me to ramble on when something could have been said with far fewer words is exactly what I thought might be a good use case for summarization. Y'know, got a lot to say but trying to be respectful of other people's time and all. <|ENDTEXT> | | |
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