I don't know that there's "real" programming, that seems like a hard fight to fight on either side, it's like arguing about whether animals are conscious or something. Are people? Who knows, pass the blunt.

But there's been this really sharp over-correction to where now an obvious thing that is just common knowledge and that was never taboo is now considered impolite to even allude to. Frontend programming is among the easier kinds of software work as measured by the number of people who can do it? I bet if I tried really hard, I could probably be pretty kickass at pickleball, small court, not a lot moving around. But to be like, that's the same thing as the NFL. No, no it's not. I would never have been able to try out for the NFL, not if I live a thousand times.

There's pickleball and pro football in programming too.

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christophilus 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> as measured by the number of people who can do it

That’s a poor measure. It proves only that there’s a demand for such programming. I have programmed in tens of languages professionally and many more for fun.

Programming is programming. I haven’t found much difference in difficulty between any of the stacks I’ve worked with. Except, maybe C++, but that’s just C++ being garbage. I now happily use Zig as an alternative, and it’s no more difficult— easier in fact— than building a well-architected, complex UI application of any kind.

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suzzer99 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Front-end programming is easier in the sense that you can make little mistakes and your entire app doesn't fall down. As someone who's done decades of both, there's nothing conceptually easier about well-executed front-end programming over back-end. The stakes just aren't as high.

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gmadsen 4 days ago | parent [-]

I think the argument might be that it takes less domain knowledge of hardware and all its abstractions, which does require a minimum threshold of reasoning and abstract thinking ability. I have high confidence someone who could built a database or kernel could also do front end work with a reasonable ramp up time.

I don’t share that confidence for the inverse in the nominal case

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cjblomqvist 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I have seen many backend developers with this mindset and approach, and; 1) Tricky parts of frontend are afaict equally tricky as building a DB/kernel/whatever. 2) A typical mistake is that a lack of knowledge about the hard parts of frontend makes backend'ers assume frontend is easy, while in reality it's their ignorance (and arrogance) rather than the subject being the issue 3) As with backend, most developers don't deal with the harder parts. Most backend developers I've talked to do simple CRUDing + minor business logic from a DB. Similarly very few developers try to write their own drag and drop library from scratch.

It's sad that so many seems to fall into the trap of 2).

(I've done both types of development for 20+ years)

	▲	benreesman 3 days ago \| parent [-]
		I have no idea what backend developer means to this or that person. It seems to mean "not frontend", so like, directly interacting with a database and possibly using a compiled or even unmanaged language? But still often deploying through something that looks like: Haswell <- Borg Hypervisor <- Borg Pod <- KVM Hypervisor <- QEMU guest <- docker-compose <- docker <- golang ? I'm talking about hackers. I remember being like 24 and and a colleague of mine (legend) had never worked in JavaScript or really the web before was on our pod that got tasked with writing a browser for J2ME and BREW that implemented real web pages. He goes home that weekend, and he comes back on Monday with a stack machine written in JavaScript (ECMA-262, we ran it on Rhino back then because Spidermonkey was a whole thing) that executed a very cute subset of JavaScript, including lambda closure and therefore Church encoding / untyped System 1. I was like whoa, why in JS? "If I have to implement it in a month, I'm already two months late to start learning it." Is that guy a frontend developer? Backend? Full Stack? He had worked on DSPs and audio before, and on video codecs and embedded. My comment above about some of this stuff is harder isn't a diss to anyone, it doesn't make me a millimeter shorter that Carmack is so tall, walking around in some rarefied air of genius I can't even formulate a picture of: it inspires me to work harder, try more ambitious things, push every day a little past yesterday's limit, and it has for more than 30 years now. There's nothing wrong with programming be a job, it's a perfectly reasonable life choice and a very sensible one in light of life's other demands and opportunities. But some of us fucking love it, think about it all the time, live to be good at it. That's a different set of outcomes. And it does grate a bit to have everyone pushing this "it's all the same, we're all the same, it's one equivalent thing", that's my passion you're talking about, I take great pride in my life's singular ambition and pursuit. We're equal but we're not the same.

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kylebyte 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The backend has plenty of complexities, but frontend developers have to deal with something just as complex - the user.

Given ramp up time, most backend engineers could build a bad frontend, or build a good one if they have a really good UX team that thought through everything and are just implementing their work.

In the real world though where UX is understaffed and often focused on the wrong problems - I've had to rescue too many frontends built by backend focused teams to share your confidence.

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suzzer99 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It's also that you're at the top of the stack. If your stuff breaks, there's no layer above you whose stuff also breaks.

Well except the end user, but depending on the app they can often be low-priority (internal apps, apps with captive audiences like online banking or airline websites, etc.).

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4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[deleted]

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jbreckmckye 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

After looking over the author's blog I can see

1. Very high output

2. Lots of AI images

3. Weird writing and editing lapses in several posts

I am moderately confident this post was written with an AI. It may not be totally AI produced, I think the author has probably edited the work, but I think we are mostly debating synthetic content.

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bigbuppo 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Most frontend development shouldn't be necessary as they're writing repetitive code that implements features that are missing from browsers. And it shouldn't be that hard to add those missing features to browsers. They're like half javascript at this point...