Even for basic sites, I tend to reach for an SPA because I never know when I'll be adding dynamic features, anything from basic showing / hiding of content, list / configuration-based rendering, or requesting data.

It's usually inevitable, so it's easier to scaffold a Vite template and get cracking without any additional setup. The time-to-deploy is fast using something like Netlify or Vercel, and then I have the peace of mind knowing I can add additional routes or features in a consistent, predictable way that fits the framework's patterns.

I'd hate to develop an MPA and realize after the fact that now I need complex, shared data across routes and for the UX to be less disrupted by page loads. Once you've dug that hole, you either have to live with it, or face a painful rewrite later.

The exception I often see is targeting mobile devices in low-bandwidth areas where larger application bundles take longer to load, but I have to wonder how often this is the target audience. I live in a place where mobile data speeds are horrible, and access to WiFi is abundant, but even so, I rarely have a situation where I *need* to load up a non-critical site on the go — and having apps pre-installed doesn't really help either when the data they're requesting is barely trickling in on mobile.

So this oft-used exception doesn't really make sense to me unless I learned why this is so critical for some people.

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pyman 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I agree. There's a rich ecosystem for building SPAs with MACH architecture. There’s no going back now, not even for basic apps.

	▲	docmars 3 days ago \| parent [-]
		For scale, this is the easiest approach. Teams can focus on their roles and specialize more, which leads to higher efficiency as team members build their rhythm and stay focused on what they're great at. At my company, our React SPA uses just over 500+ components across maybe ~30 views, with many smaller components alongside many of them in the same files. Our bundle size is obscene, but our customers are using fast PCs on fast connections. Once it's cached, they're good -- and each new release is roughly every 2-4 weeks, so fresh visits are painless. As for server-side rendering from RSC, Next, Nuxt, and SvelteKit, I'd say they're overkill in most situations. The amount of people deploying simple sites on Vercel using Next.js, not really using its features, is just silly (and costly).

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hasanhaja 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

But this is exactly the point of the article. That'd be like if I needed to build a car, I started with a rocket blueprint in case I also need to go to space in the future.

The cost of speculating a highly interactive site that users will want to interact with is a suboptimal baseline experience until you get there. Provided you get there without losing users, it'll still be a subset of your audience that use your thing in a way that truly offsets all of these costs. If that works for your product/business, then awesome! But if these costs are too high and will hurt your product, then you need to be a lot more deliberate about how you engineer it.

I typically approach the problem first and see what tools work best to solve the problem, rather than work backwards from my preferred set of tools.

> Once you've dug that hole, you either have to live with it, or face a painful rewrite later.

Based on the tools you mentioned familiarity with, wouldn't something like Astro be a happy middle ground? You start as an MPA by default and only add complexity to parts (entire routes or parts of a page) of the application that require it? Also, this hole goes both ways. If you've built your site as a SPA, and you realise that your product just needs to be HTML to stay competitive, it's a painful road to unpick the layers of abstraction you've bought if you don't wanna rewrite it.

> dynamic features, anything from basic showing / hiding of content, list / configuration-based rendering, or requesting data

What would a highly dynamic feature be in your opinion and how does a SPA framework help you? All of the examples mentioned here, in my opinion, are fantastic candidates for server side templating and progressive enhancement. I don't need see the need for the SPA architecture here.

> mobile devices in low-bandwidth areas

Curious to know what kind of devices are present in your area? The implications of larger applications is both network and CPU [1], so if you live in a relatively wealthy area (say over 75% of users had iPhones) you'd notice the negative effects of too much JS less. If you're in the public sector or building for the public, then you can't get away with the excuse that people on slow devices and networks aren't your target audience; you need to meet everyone where they're at. A HTML-first architecture is a better and more inclusive baseline for all.

[1] https://infrequently.org/2024/01/performance-inequality-gap-...

	▲	docmars 3 days ago \| parent [-]
		> wouldn't something like Astro be a happy middle ground? Absolutely, but it is additional boilerplate I have to worry about that serves as another layer alongside whatever SPA framework I prefer; whereas spinning up a Vite template with Vue, writing a few routes + components, and getting it built + deployed is easier. It's at such a low cost (bundle size, time, boilerplate) that the optimizations gained from Astro aren't even in my purview unless I'm experiencing a significant enough scale that justifies static rendering. When my apps are feeling and behaving perfectly already, why optimize? It only comes with increased scope and cost to bend around another layer. > If you've built your site as a SPA, and you realize that your product just needs to be HTML to stay competitive This does go both ways, yes, but with SPAs, I have more flexibility around client-side features like transitions, animations, pagination for smaller datasets, and state-based views that depend on a lot of different interactions, user selections, etc. that all drive what gets displayed instantly, without making a single network request just to complete the interaction. The Venn diagram between the two shows SPAs doing more out of the box, at such a low cost to commit. Whereas with MPAs and server-side templating, a better-feeling UI isn't a luxury you can enjoy without some form of JavaScript to wire up page interactions. Given these are often a requirement, you'll find yourself haphazardly adding an SPA library to an existing MPA to enhance the perceived UX that it couldn't provide. Then you're not only juggling 2 scripting languages, but also reconciling the separation of concerns between your client/server now. Although, happy-mediums have emerged: 37signals created Hotwire to help bridge this gap, Laravel has a similar library Intertia.js, and htmx+Alpine is another interesting solution. Lastly on this point, Svelte's build step strips your SPA into the smallest possible runtime. Svelte was actually built for creating SPAs intended to run on low-power devices [1] typically seen in places like LATAM. React also has an official compiler that memoizes component data and callbacks. Preact is a 3kb alternative to React (40kb) for low-power devices, sharing the same APIs with only a few minor differences. React, Vue, and Svelte all have server-side rendering where you can comfortably write sites/apps that serve up smaller bundles and stream updates to the client as needed, without sacrificing a pleasant UX. So, to answer your question "what if your SPA needs to be HTML to stay competitive?" -- these are all the most sustainable paths with the lowest costs. >> You may be asking, "why don't you learn + use some of the alternatives you listed?" As any reasonably tired, middle-aged engineer would say: I'm happy with the language(s), tools, libraries, and frameworks I'm comfortable using. The incessant drive to learn new tools that pretty much do the same thing with dubious (and likely negligible) benefit at smaller scale feels like a distraction when I could just be building and shipping something with familiar tech that thousands of other developers enjoy using. I also benefit from the community support as well, not to mention, AI tools are best used in TypeScript codebases currently. Server-side templating requires dedicated hosting / VPS, which is a whole 'nother layer of deploying, managing, and debugging. Static sites and SPAs can be hosted with a static host for free (unless you scale like crazy), and any data-related needs are solved with serverless services like Supabase, Convex, lambdas/functions, and any number of others -- all with generous free plans and some level of portability. In my case, I'm only developing SaaS applications not needing mobile support, that are only used by companies that buy decent computers for their employees. Otherwise I'm building small webapps for personal use and some that may become a hit among niche communities. Even my personal site is a tiny Vue app, and only because it's familiar and easy to change. The performance fiends can cry all they want that it isn't purely static, and in many ways, that amuses me. [1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Learn_web_developme...