| ▲ | uncircle 7 days ago |
| I know people here love to hate it, and it's a very very controversial topic, but this here, is a good use case for Bitcoin [1] Now that we have Lightning and hyperfast micropayments, can we have a good plug-and-play payment processor that uses it? The few services that allow Bitcoin payments still require an on-chain transaction, which is very user-unfriendly. In any case, despite what the haters say, this is the value proposition of cryptos. If it's not the government deciding what you can purchase or not, it's the payment processor cartel. 1: Other cryptos are just piggybacking on the popularity of the main one so I don't care about them. |
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| ▲ | nonameiguess 7 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| It's not in this case. The payment processors were going to drop all support to these platforms if they didn't remove these games. Bitcoin could allow them to keep operating, but at the cost that now all users who want any games at all have to use Bitcoin. Mainstream platforms accepting Bitcoin as an option is fine and great, but few if any are going to want to only accept Bitcoin. |
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| ▲ | KronisLV 7 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Mainstream platforms accepting Bitcoin as an option is fine and great, but few if any are going to want to only accept Bitcoin. For all of the talk (hype) about how crypto has the potential to avoid the exact type of meddling and manipulation and pressuring we’re seeing now, it surprises me that no equivalents to PayPal have really popped up - that best that can be done is apparently something along the lines of what Linux was on the desktop a decade or two ago. Basically, before Valve and others picked up the slack and worked on things your average person actually cares about - notably, gaming and simple(r) to use desktop environments and software stores. Where’s the flagship platform for payments that’s built on crypto but lets you ignore the technical details, that’s trivial to implement as a merchant and is a download away on app stores? If there are a few of those, why would anyone bother with these puritan payment processors? | | |
| ▲ | barbazoo 7 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Isn't that what Monero is trying to do? Why can't I pay with Monero at the grocery store? Presumably because some gatekeeper that's in between me and the business has to decide whether it makes financial sense _to them_ whether to add Monero to the exclusive list of supported payment methods. | |
| ▲ | bornfreddy 7 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | There are many actually, some extremely simple to use. The problem is that payers also need to use crypto and many people don't know how, but are instead used to paying with credit cards. |
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| ▲ | beeflet 7 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Using cryptocurrency would give them leverage in a future negotiation. The goal would not be to replace payments entirely with cryptocurrencies (they are pretty inefficient), but to reduce the monopolistic power of conventional payment processors and strike a better deal. I would argue it's worth investing infrastructure into it, for the same reason that valve has invested infrastructure into linux to gain leverage over microsoft. Without leverage, negotiations get ugly: see the Epic vs Apple saga. |
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| ▲ | burkaman 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If Steam dropped Visa and Mastercard and successfully got most of their customers to use a Bitcoin payment processor instead, wouldn't these organizations just pressure that processor? I don't see how it would be any different. If the problem you're trying to solve is that private payment processors can deny service to anyone they don't like, the underlying technology the processor uses is irrelevant. |
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| ▲ | mkleczek 7 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Bitcoin does not require any payment processor. That's its whole point: censorship-resistant, permissionless, p2p payment system. | | |
| ▲ | vel0city 7 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Bitcoin won't require a payment processor, but companies wanting to effectively handle Bitcoin will want a payment processor or else they will have to become one themselves. Even companies working in large amounts of cash end up hiring companies to handle the cash logistics and all the other complications in dealing with it. | | |
| ▲ | mkleczek 7 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I am not sure why any middle man is needed to "effectively" handle Bitcoin. It is a very liquid asset - easy to move and easy to sell. | | |
| ▲ | Fargren 7 days ago | parent [-] | | You want to handle refunds, fraud, money laundering, chargebacks... That stuff is really hard, and if it's not your main line of business, you really don't want to do it. And if you don't have a payment processor do it, and you don't do it yourself, criminals will scam your customers and use your platform to commit fraud and launder money and you will get in hot water with the law. Bitcoin can be used as currency for occasional transactions between individuals. But you don't want your business to depend on it. It doesn't scale, not due to technological reasons, but because of legal issues and customer experience expectation. | | |
| ▲ | mkleczek 7 days ago | parent [-] | | Sure - you can (and probably should) outsource your non-core business like accounting, accounts receivables etc. but it is not payment processing. Bitcoin adoption is a chicken and egg problem. But my guess is that censoring porn creates a very big incentive for people to start using it. |
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| ▲ | udev4096 7 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | vel0city 5 days ago | parent [-] | | There's still a lot of work in managing the custody of all that cryptocurrency safely and securely from a business perspective. It's the same thing as a company needing a building for their factory. They decide they don't want to pay rent anymore, they're going to control their own properties they own themselves now. But the business of managing the property now falls to the business to do. So even when companies own their own properties they often end up hiring a property management company to deal the the day to day operations of running a commercial property. Because in the end they don't want to have to worry about their janitorial contracts, handling elevator certifications, landscaping contracts, maintenance techs, etc. They want to focus on producing widgets. Same thing with hosting a digital storefront. Sure one could spend all the time managing servers on your own offices and ensure good uptime and security and what not, or you can just sign up for Shopify or others and they'll manage it all for you. If managing servers and software stacks and digital security isn't your main business competency, why get into it? Most companies won't want to deal the logistics of handling crypto. So they'll often outsource that work, because I'm the end they want to focus on selling widgets not handling payments. For the same kinds of reasons why they'll hire a company to do cash logistics. Do you need to hire payment processor to accept crypto? No. But in the end you will need to do that work though. I'm not the reason why people choose these big centralized services. I'm not that powerful. They choose them because they see value in the services they offer. Not everyone wants to be their own bank. |
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| ▲ | thunderfork 7 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | beeflet 7 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well I think the advantage is that the cryptocurrency payment processors are interchangeable. But your point mostly stands |
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| ▲ | fmbb 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Bitcoin existing is not going to make Itch.io not want to accept payments via Visa. Porn is a tiny market. It’s not worth it losing the payment processors everyone is on to serve porn game buyers. |
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| ▲ | beeflet 7 days ago | parent | next [-] | | >Porn is a tiny market. It’s not worth it losing the payment processors everyone is on to serve porn game buyers. I agree with this point but I don't agree with the premise. I don't really care about the censorship of porn, but it is a slippery slope to censorship in general. If you give them an inch they will take a mile. I think there is sometimes a business justification of putting your foot in the ground, even if the short term consequences are harsh. | | |
| ▲ | fmbb 7 days ago | parent [-] | | I’m not making a value judgement here. Just looking at it from the point of view of a business. |
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| ▲ | uncircle 7 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Porn is a tiny market. I'm not sure I agree. In the context of gaming, perhaps, but most of the Internet traffic is basically pornography. | | |
| ▲ | fmbb 7 days ago | parent [-] | | When I say market here I mean something people pay for, where producers can convince people to spend money. I’m quite sure there is not a lot of people paying for porn. The money people are making surely comes from ads and data hoarding. |
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| ▲ | odo1242 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Don’t you have to create a distinct payment channel (on-chain transaction) for every person you pay over Lightning? Or am I misunderstanding things? |
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| ▲ | uncircle 7 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Third-parties take care of this bureaucracy for you. Check out the Phoenix wallet, for example. (Unaffiliated, I hold some pocket money on there not to run a Lightning node myself) The on-chain transaction is just to "fund" a channel between two parties. These two parties can then make unlimited trasnfers between each other instantaneously for free. These nodes are organised in a network and can relay payment from other nodes as well. It's a bit like the Internet. You don't need to peer with everybody, you just need a path from A to B. If you and I have a channel funded with 100 sat, we can move these around as many times as we wish, even on behalf of others, but if you need to transfer more than you have on your side, you need to fund the channel with another on-chain transaction. That's where the Phoenix 1% fee comes from, as they deal with this exact problem for you, so you don't have to worry about it. | | |
| ▲ | beeflet 7 days ago | parent | next [-] | | >Third-parties take care of this bureaucracy for you. Check out the Phoenix wallet, for example. Sort of defeats the purpose then, doesn't it? Why not just make lightning payments directly from your bitcoin exchange? | | |
| ▲ | littlecranky67 6 days ago | parent [-] | | In the case of Phoenix, you have semi-custody - i.e. control over your coin, and it can't be taken from you. There are other non-custodial wallets (Wallet of Satoshi) which are like an exchange - so they can rug pull you anytime just as Paypal can. |
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| ▲ | odo1242 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Ah, I see |
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| ▲ | xur17 7 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | No. You can route through other people on the network, so you just need a path to the person through others. |
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| ▲ | rustystump 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The fact that the majority of validators caved to sanctions from us means bitcoin is not gonna cut it esp if uncle sam gets involved. Pro crypto folks want to stay on the up and up due to trying to change the negative view of it. I personally worked in the crypto payment processing space and we had to say no to many very well known porn companies for this reason. |
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| ▲ | egypturnash 7 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Random thoughts: * anything using proof-of-work is still gonna be a hard sell
* good luck figuring out how to get the user experience on both ends appear to be in USD without ever having to give a shit about the constantly-fluctuating value of BTC
* fun times ahead when you get big enough for the government to notice you and start requiring you to comply with all kinds of arcane regulations |
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| ▲ | uncircle 7 days ago | parent | next [-] | | 1. Proof-of-work is a feature. 2. Just do the conversion at the time of sale. 3. Government prohibition and restriction of our rights is a terrible problem and it's why Bitcoin was invented in the first place. It's a necessary fight if only to keep government power in check, unless one really believes the State is always right and always has our best interest in mind. I don't. | | |
| ▲ | egypturnash 7 days ago | parent [-] | | The colossal amount of energy burnt by proof-of-work is one of the reasons people who are not cryptobros loathe crypto. | | |
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| ▲ | beeflet 7 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | >good luck figuring out how to get the user experience on both ends appear to be in USD I think it works out fine with fixed/float exchanges. These are exchanges that let you agree on a fixed exchange rate for a small (<=%1 fee) or trade at a floating exchange rate. The fee covers the price risk |
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