Remix.run Logo
righthand 7 days ago

The major problem is the payment processors though. Unless you defeat that duopoly or only accept cash how do you stop this exact situation?

There are the FedNow tokens and ACH which could help but it still requires quite a bit of cost to begin even that route. My customers are going to want to use their cards to pay too.

crooked-v 7 days ago | parent | next [-]

There's the Fair Access to Banking Act (https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/senate-bill/401), currently stuck in committee, which would make it illegal for various financial services, including payment processors, to deny service for mere reputational reasons.

delecti 7 days ago | parent [-]

I wrongly assumed this was a D bill, and would die in committee. Turns out it's actually an R bill, with exclusively R sponsors, and now I'm wondering what awful shit is hiding in it.

Though almost all of the sponsors are from almost 6 months ago, so it might die in committee anyway.

crooked-v 7 days ago | parent | next [-]

The text is on there and is very straightforward. As far as I can tell it's a basically good bill.

delecti 7 days ago | parent [-]

I agree that the text sounds good. I'm worried about the consequences I might not think of. What legal services are the Ds and Rs thinking of that currently have trouble with payment processors, and which are causing a lot of Rs to sponsor and no Ds? Because I'm sure it's not porn and video games.

dlachausse 7 days ago | parent [-]

Operation Choke Point is referenced by the proposed bill...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point

> Operation Choke Point was an initiative of the United States Department of Justice beginning in 2013 which investigated banks in the United States and the business they did with firearm dealers, payday lenders, and other companies that, while operating legally, were said to be at a high risk for fraud and money laundering.

There's a whole list on the Wikipedia article of the kinds of legal businesses that were targeted by this. Some of them make sense, but others look like very serious 1A and 2A violations.

metalcrow 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Historically, payment processors were usually against republicans, which is why you see them acting in support of this.

perihelions 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Debanking is a form of social deplatforming that (for now) mostly targets right-wing causes. That's not at all to assert that the bill is wrong or that censorship is right—I'm just clarifying why it's Republicans on the side against censorship, in this context, when in other contexts the roles are flipped.

You can read the bill's author (Kevin Cramer) discussing that bill and his motives for writing it:

https://web.archive.org/web/20250715113010/https://fedsoc.or... ("Debanking: The Newest Threat to Free Speech and Religious Liberty?) (2024)

> [Senator Kevin Cramer] "...I've heard that one from some pretty big bank presidents - but they get a lot of noise in their left ear and you have activist investors and whatnot that are saying, hey, you know what? We don't like coal. We don't like oil, we don't like natural gas. We don't like private prisons, or we don't like ammunition shops or gun manufacturers or whatever the case might be, the entire category or industry and says, "Well, so we're not going to bank them. We're going to debank them. We're not going to bank them. You're disqualified from getting money from us.”, and they're starving these industries out. And all this really is, in my view, you guys is this is a political agenda where they're utilizing the leverage of the financial services sector to accomplish policy goals that they can't accomplish any other way."

5 days ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
AdmiralAsshat 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> and now I'm wondering what awful shit is hiding in it.

Had to look into it a bit.

From looking at the text of the bill, it looks like the sponsor did not like Operation Choke Point [0], which was specifically targeting banks that did business with Payday Lenders, Ponzi Schemes, and other shady vendors.

This also included pornography, but I'm willing to bet that's not what Sen. Cramer was upset about. More likely, he's simply serving the interest of his donors.

He also might have extremist "small business" constituents that are perhaps selling racist/sexist/homophobic merch, and they don't like being told that their bank/credit card processors are refusing to process payments on that swag.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point

vdqtp3 7 days ago | parent [-]

That's disingenuous. There were plenty of legit business types included also. Directly from your link:

    ammunition sales

    ATM operators

    cable box de-scramblers

    coin dealers

    credit card schemes

    credit repair services

    dating services

    debt consolidation scams

    drug paraphernalia

    escort services

    firearms sales

    fireworks sales

    get rich products

    government grants

    home-based charities

    lifetime guarantees

    lifetime memberships

    lottery sales

    mailing lists/personal info

    money transfer networks

    online gambling

    pawn shops

    payday loans

    pharmaceutical sales

    Ponzi schemes

    pornography[5]

    pyramid-type sales

    racist materials

    surveillance equipment

    telemarketing

    tobacco sales

    travel clubs
7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
bigstrat2003 7 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Turns out it's actually an R bill, with exclusively R sponsors, and now I'm wondering what awful shit is hiding in it.

It seems to me like if you thought something was good and then switched to thinking it was bad based just on who proposed it, you need to stop being prejudiced. Evaluate ideas (or bills) for their merits, not based on who originated them.

delecti 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

Being a member of a political party is cosigning their platform, and based on a consistent 60+ years pattern of behavior they do not deserve any benefit of the doubt. It's not prejudice if it's based on observation. It's entirely reasonable to wonder what ghoulish motives they might have for an idea I initially thought sounded good.

zbentley 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Evaluate ideas (or bills) for their merits, not based on who originated them.

Ideas? Sure. Bills? No.

So much of how a piece of legislation affects society has to do with the agendas of the people behind it (no matter what it says in text) and the means by which the executive implements it (often hand-in-glove with the agendas of the legislation’s originators).

https://www.eatingpolicy.com/p/understanding-the-cascade-of-...

badsectoracula 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah and it isn't just you accepting cash. Let's say you decide to go with cash (or, more realistically, manual bank transfers) and even get some host like 1984 that'd go to the court for you, but what stops Visa/MC to go directly at your host and tell them to either drop your site or they'll drop them?

gs17 7 days ago | parent [-]

In theory, if you went "full crypto", there's probably options like Filecoin and web3 domains (I'm not in that space enough to know what the current versions of these are) that could make something "uncensorable" by Visa/MC, but it also would limit its reach heavily.

kelseyfrog 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is it not possible to jawbone them into favoring free speech?

If they are easy to sway in one direction, why not the other? Simply do what Collective Shout did, but in the opposite direction?

magicmicah85 7 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Cryptocurrency is the only way I see this working.

righthand 7 days ago | parent | next [-]

Cryptocurrency is a nice idea but there are and have always been too many gas fees for anyone to sensibly use it. I want to buy something not support everyone that get their hands in my transaction chain.

The US government can break up the duopoly and open up payments processing federally. That’s worth the investment than that pipe dream of a global, frictionless cryptocurrency.

0x457 7 days ago | parent | next [-]

>Cryptocurrency is a nice idea but there are and have always been too many gas fees for anyone to sensibly use it. I want to buy something not support everyone that get their hands in my transaction chain.

But you're doing this with credit cards already? Different amounts, but still supporting everyone in a chain. If you want to "buy" something without supporting intermediates, then barter is the only way to go. Everything else requires common trust, and common trust comes with operating cost.

bornfreddy 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Cryptocurrency is a nice idea but there are and have always been too many gas fees for anyone to sensibly use it.

That's not true, at least not in general. Polygon (and USDT/USDC on Polygon) fees are near zero, Ethereum is lately very cheap, and even Bitcoin fees are no longer outrageous. EDIT: ...and Bitcoin Lightning is cheap.

A lot of p0rn payment processing is done in crypto for exactly the censorship reasons. If you can't use the payment processor, who cares what their fees are? (not saying they are cheaper or more expensive than crypto - I don't know)

xur17 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This has mostly been solved. Bitcoin's lightning network, ethereum layer 2 networks, etc all have sub-cent fees.

lynndotpy 7 days ago | parent | next [-]

Not sure about Ethereum's equivalent, but 'Lightning' just reintroduces the problem of having one person act like a payment processor.

xur17 7 days ago | parent [-]

Not sure I follow.

lynndotpy 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

A node in the Lightning network (to simplify a lot) become the payment processor that would be targeted.

(But it's kind of spurious- in practice, Coinbase, Block, etc. would be targeted far before someone running a Lightning node would be. The larger point is that very few people would interact with Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies as a peer in the network.)

righthand 7 days ago | parent | prev [-]

V or MC perhaps?

righthand 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Even still I have put money into my bank then put it into cryptocurrency. My customers just want to use their bank, not a pseudocurrency. My customers aren’t trying to escape the payment processor. They can just pirate the game.

TheCraiggers 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The US government can break up the duopoly and open up payments processing federally.

Between that and someone actually creating a viable Steam competitor, I will say the government breaking them up and rolling out their own solution would be even less likely. You'd have fights on both sides of the isle and from privacy groups. Not that we have much privacy now under the current scheme, but there's at least a tiny bit of separation between V/MC and the government.

What should happen instead is regulation. They should be held to the same standards as legal tender since they're used in place as such. They shouldn't get to decide how it's used, and that should be enforced.

righthand 7 days ago | parent [-]

Isn’t regulation even less likely though than a split? You yourself acknowledge the times and the current admin is heavy anti-regulation.

TheCraiggers 7 days ago | parent [-]

Perhaps. You're right that it's currently unlikely, but I still argue that it would be easier to legislate than split up. It's not like the financial industry doesn't already have an insane amount of rules and regulations at both the state and federal level preventing them from being too nefarious. Having a rule that states "You're not allowed to cut off vendor foo just because they sell bar" doesn't seem that much of a stretch, especially if you look at credit as basically another form of legal tender.

6 days ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
logicchains 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It already works; it's how people in China purchase adult content online, which is illegal there. Usually with USDT (which is also illegal there).

southernplaces7 5 days ago | parent [-]

They actually bother purchasing it? They don't simply pirate it rampantly to around access problems?

Night_Thastus 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Adding a broken, inefficient system to a problem just makes 2 problems.

xxs 7 days ago | parent | prev [-]

So, you don't see it working at all.