| ▲ | ricciardo 5 days ago |
| What are the drawbacks of this battery compared to a Lithium-Ion battery? I would assume practicality (sizing, installation, etc...) but I would be interested to hear others thoughts on this. This site does a great job marketing the battery but not defining the drawbacks, hence why I am asking. |
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| ▲ | myrmidon 5 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| Worse efficiency, much higher (mechanical!) complexity, much more bespoke and slower to get installed. I honestly don't see this really taking off, batteries are too cheap already, people just haven't really realized yet. You can just order 1kWh of storage as a prismatic LiFePO cell for about $60 and have it delivered in the same week. Battery management and inverters are a solved problem, too, and don't have moving parts either. |
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| ▲ | ethan_smith 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The efficiency concerns here are valid. For comparison, modern lithium power stations are hitting 90%+ round-trip efficiency pretty consistently now. The mechanical complexity is what worries me most - CO2 phase changes, compression/decompression cycles, heat exchangers...that's a lot of potential failure points compared to solid-state lithium cells. When researching portable power stations (I used gearscouts to compare $/Wh across different capacities), even budget lithium units are getting surprisingly cost-effective. We're seeing <$0.30/Wh for some models now. That said, if Energy Dome can achieve reasonable $/kWh at grid scale without the lithium supply chain constraints, the efficiency trade-off might be worth it. The real question is whether the mechanical complexity translates to higher maintenance costs that eat into any capex savings. https://gearscouts.com/power-stations | |
| ▲ | SoftTalker 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | With the energy source (presumably solar/wind) being "free," efficiency isn't the most important thing. But the whole thing sounds sort of "Rube Goldberg" even if it works, batteries or supercapacitors or something like that are probably going to be a lot more reliable. It's sort of like arguing for going back to steam engines because we've got a new way to boil water. | | |
| ▲ | cogman10 5 days ago | parent [-] | | > It's sort of like arguing for going back to steam engines because we've got a new way to boil water. A large portion of power comes from new and exciting ways to boil water that turns a turbine ;) Most fossil fuel plants are water boilers as are all nuclear plants. There's even some solar power plants that are effectively just water boilers. |
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| ▲ | philipkglass 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The biggest drawback that this web page acknowledges is lower round trip efficiency (75% for the CO2 battery, 85% for the lithium battery). If that is really the only deficiency, this device is great. I'd mostly be wary of what the actual costs and operational experience are. This device has moving parts that a battery doesn't. Looking at their news page, I see announcements of projects and partnerships but I don't think that they have any completed projects running yet. I suspect that their CAPEX comparison, where they show lithium ion batteries as 70% more expensive, may be aspirational rather than demonstrated. There are several companies that have already installed megawatt-scale lithium ion grid storage today: Samsung, BYD, Tesla, Fluence, LG Chem... and many of these projects have published costs and operational experience already. |
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| ▲ | ggreer 5 days ago | parent [-] | | They built a small plant in Sardinia, but I can't find any information on what it cost to build or operate.[1] I'm skeptical of their cost claims. Turbines aren't cheap and compared to batteries, they require significant maintenance. And while you can increase energy storage by increasing the size/number of CO2 tanks, the only way to increase power output (or "charging" speed) is to add more/bigger compressors and turbines. There's also the issue of volumetric energy density. Wikipedia says that compressed CO2 storage has an energy density of 66.7 watt-hours per liter, though it's unclear if that's before or after turbine inefficiencies.[2] And that's the density in a compressed tank. It doesn't count the volume of the low pressure dome, which is many times larger. For comparison, lithium batteries are 250–700Wh per liter depending on the chemistry. Specific energy (energy per unit mass) is better than lithium ion, but since these are fixed installations, mass isn't a major concern. Considering their claims are for a theoretical full scale plant, and that the numbers are already worse than batteries (75% efficiency, lower volumetric energy density, $200/kWh), I'm not optimistic. This technology might have niche uses, but I don't see it competing with most lithium battery installations. That said, I hope I'm wrong. The more energy storage solutions we have, the better our future will be. 1. https://www.energy-storage.news/energy-dome-launches-4mwh-de... 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed_carbon_dioxide_ener... |
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| ▲ | cogman10 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I think the biggest issue is perhaps the danger aspect of it. You are making wild pressure swings on some critical storage structures with some pretty wild temp swings. Making sure that doesn't ultimately destroy the CO2 canister or collapse the CO2 dome will be a challenge. It also has to be pretty big, which doesn't matter too much other than a critical failure would be more impressive. They say no leaks, but I'm sure there will be SOME CO2 leakage. Hard to make something like this with gases that doesn't leak at least a little. You could offset that with some CO2 capture via atmospheric distillation. |
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| ▲ | datadrivenangel 5 days ago | parent [-] | | The storage of CO2 as a liquid means less pressure then a high pressure gas. | | |
| ▲ | cogman10 5 days ago | parent [-] | | To store CO2 as a liquid you either need to chill it or you need to increase the pressure until it becomes a liquid. It takes around 75psi to turn CO2 into a liquid at room temperature. | | |
| ▲ | RandallBrown 5 days ago | parent [-] | | 75 psi seems very low. Numbers I'm seeing online say more like 800-900 PSI. | | |
| ▲ | cogman10 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Ah, you're correct I was turning bar into psi on the charts I was looking at. | | |
| ▲ | tzs 5 days ago | parent [-] | | They are storing it at 70 bar, which is a little over 1000 psi. |
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| ▲ | jabl 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I would say the big issue would be the size and cost of the gas dome. For storing a substantial amount of gaseous CO2 that will be humongous. |
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| ▲ | 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | SoftTalker 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Mechanical complexity. |
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| ▲ | nine_k 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Say, lower round-trip efficiency, and maybe lower peak power. Also likely a larger area is required: can't make a powerwall out of it. |
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| ▲ | salynchnew 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Square footage and durability of the form factor? |
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| ▲ | randallsquared 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| The main drawback appears to be short storage time. |