| ▲ | FirmwareBurner 4 days ago |
| >There used to be open war between European countries every 30 years or so. That hasn’t happened. I meant how did that ensure peace between Ukraine, Russia and EU? It clearly didn't even though EU was buying shit tonnes of gas from Russia, and Russia was buying shit tonne of aerospace parts and stuff from Ukraine. War still happened. [..edited out the Yugoslavia argument..] All the proof shows "peace through trade" does not work. The only thing that works is "peace through strength", which then you can use to enforce and defend your own favorable trade policies for you and your close allies, which has been the US's MO since 1945. |
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| ▲ | seszett 4 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| > I meant between Ukraine, RUssia and EU. > Yugoslav wars started in 1991 and ended in 2001. Russia invaded Crimea in 2014. Are these wars not "European" enough? Well, Ukraine, Russia and the former Yugoslavian republics that had wars are not part of the EU, or were not at the moment they had their wars. And even though all neighbouring countries trade with the EU, their economies are much less interdependent than those of the EU countries because of the lack of free trade and freedom of movement. So this supports the idea that the EU does prevent wars rather than invalidating it. |
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| ▲ | FirmwareBurner 4 days ago | parent [-] | | >So this supports the idea that the EU does prevent wars rather than invalidating it. Yes, it was all the EU economy. The 40 or so US military bases occupying the EU had nothing to do with ensuring peace on the continent. | | |
| ▲ | seszett 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I didn't caricature your words, so please don't do it with me. Of course the US plays a part. But they don't have bases everywhere so it's not that obvious why it would explain why France and Luxembourg get along fine but Serbia and Kosovo don't, is it? Or Turkey and Greece, which both host US bases. | | |
| ▲ | FirmwareBurner 4 days ago | parent [-] | | >it would explain why France and Luxembourg The discussion wasn't about getting along fine but about economic ties preventing wars, since Russia and Germany were also "getting along fine" till 1940 when they suddenly weren't. And Luxemburg has nothing that would prevent France form invading them if they wanted to, economic ties or not. Economic ties might even be a negative for your protection since economic ties have to be negotiated but if you invade the other party you own their assets and economy and don't need to negociate any ties anymore. The only thing prevents war is a strong military force. | | |
| ▲ | gambiting 4 days ago | parent [-] | | >>The only thing prevents war is a strong military force. Why hasn't France invaded Luxemburg then? They would be met with close to zero resistance and no other EU state would attack them militarily for it. You must be able to see that there are other factors preventing war other than military force? | | |
| ▲ | FirmwareBurner 4 days ago | parent [-] | | >Why hasn't France invaded Luxemburg then? Because they're a developed, civilized, self sufficient democracy, so they have more to loose than to gain by doing that in modern times. My point wasn't that they aren't, my point was that they can do it if they want to, and no trade is gonna stop them, they just don't want to because they don't need to. If you want a better example look at Monaco, who had to cede to France and tax only the French citizens living there as Monaco was popular place for French elite tax dodgers. Monaco did this for France and no other country precisely because France has the military upper hand in this negotiation and could just invade them without breaking a sweat if they opposed. Another example is when Swiss military accidentally bombed their neighboring ally Liechtenstein several times during drills/exercises, and they just apologized with a box of wine, but funny how they never accidentally bomb their more powerful neighbors France and Germany. Weird how the small kids who can't fight back always end up being bullied, amirite? | | |
| ▲ | seszett 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Not to insist, but... Monaco is not part of the EU. Switzerland and Liechtenstein aren't part of the EU either. Luxembourg is, and it doesn't get bullied by its neighbours, using your words. (Not anymore at least, because most of historical Luxembourg has been annexed by its neighbours in the recent past). |
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| ▲ | motorest 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > I meant how did that ensure peace between Ukraine, Russia and EU? There lies the source of your confusion. The EU was designed to prevent wars within Europe, not between outside members. Do you think that NATO bombing Kadafi represents a failure of the EU's mission? |
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| ▲ | adastra22 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Neither Russia nor Ukraine are part of the EU. That’s my point? |
