| ▲ | lurk2 2 days ago |
| > Yes, that is a legitimate argument to make in a cruel, uncaring (most of the time) world. No, it isn’t. “I wish you didn’t exist because your existence inconveniences me,” is a step away from “I should be able to kill you because you inconvenience me.” You will likely think that I am being hyperbolic (“We’re just talking about if it was a good idea for these people to exist, not saying we should be able to kill them now that they do exist.”), but I suspect that you would not feel the same way if it was your existence being discussed this way. |
|
| ▲ | toomuchtodo 2 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| I do feel the same way of my existence being discussed this way. Would anything be different had I not existed? No, besides my brief life experience and interactions I’ve had with other humans not occurring. I wouldn’t have even known I never existed. Is that good or bad? Right or wrong? No, it just is. |
| |
| ▲ | lurk2 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > Would anything be different had I not existed? No, besides my brief life experience and interactions I’ve had with other humans not occurring. “Besides” is doing a lot of work here. | | |
| ▲ | toomuchtodo 2 days ago | parent [-] | | We perhaps disagree about the value of the human experience based on lived experiences. |
|
|
|
| ▲ | margalabargala 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yes, very similar to how in the decades after abortion was legalized nationally in the US, it gradually northern to our current state where it is legal to kill your own children any time before they turn 18. Oh wait, no, that didn't happen, because in both your and my case it turns out humans are able to distinguish between life that is and life that might be. The "step" you mentioned is only a small one in a philosophical sense, enormous otherwise to the point of not being a concern. |
| |
| ▲ | lurk2 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > it gradually northern to our current state where it is legal to kill your own children any time before they turn 18. They’re trying. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcHzaWyB21A | | |
| ▲ | margalabargala 2 days ago | parent [-] | | That video is about abortion. Before birth. So no, they're not trying. | | |
| ▲ | lurk2 2 days ago | parent [-] | | In the video they are discussing the prospect of aborting the pregnancy as the child is being born. | | |
| ▲ | margalabargala 2 days ago | parent [-] | | This is a great example because it strengthens the original one I was making; that despite pearl-clutching about what something "could allow", the actual bad thing that they're concerned about never happens. It's just a distraction tactic. Plenty of states, like Alaska and Oregon, already allow abortion right up to the moment of birth. They don't happen, ever, zero times, except in cases where somebody is going to die otherwise. The handwringing over "omg they're killing children" actually just kills both children and mothers by making lifesaving procedures illegal. People don't carry unwanted babies to term unless forced to do so. Thus making it illegal to abort a full-term baby does nothing but score political points, at the expense of the deaths of some mothers who desperately wanted a child and then had some complications. |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | hypertele-Xii 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's happening in Canada right now. They are pressuring inconvenient individuals to take their lives. |
|
|
| ▲ | bloqs 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| what is your opinion of the state assisting people to survive when their caregivers die? and what of thr caregivers who cannot work, or cannot afford care? |
| |
| ▲ | lurk2 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Primary care duties and costs should remain with caregivers except in cases of neglect or deprivation. Additional healthcare burdens (e.g. development psychologists, medication, etc.) should be covered by the state. When caregivers die, the subject is assigned a social worker to ensure his wellbeing. If no other caregiver can be found, he becomes a ward of the state. Socializing the costs this way has its own ethical problems, especially where the parents continue to reproduce after learning they are carriers; I’ve simply concluded that the costs of care are completely negligible when you contrast them with the loss of human dignity that results from valuing an individual human on the basis of economic cost or contribution. |
|
|
| ▲ | 9dev 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yes, I do think you’re being hyperbolic. We’re waging a life that doesn’t exist yet against two parents and possible a healthy child that could be. Accommodating for a human that exists, if suffering, is clearly a moral obligation. Doing so when it’s not a human but a husk still is not, and deciding in favour of the very human parents—who also have a right to happiness—is definitely ethically valid. In a related discussion, someone argued that keeping up industrial farming is just, because if we stopped doing so all the cattle that wouldn’t been born would be worse off for never being alive, even if their existence was suffering, because suffering is better than not being at all. I firmly believe this is just wrong. Before a being gains consciousness, it’s not a being and doesn’t experience, hence by avoiding their conception we also avoid unnecessary suffering. |
| |
| ▲ | lurk2 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > In a related discussion, someone argued that keeping up industrial farming is just, because if we stopped doing so all the cattle that wouldn’t been born would be worse off for never being alive, even if their existence was suffering, because suffering is better than not being at all. I firmly believe this is just wrong. Before a being gains consciousness, it’s not a being and doesn’t experience, hence by avoiding their conception we also avoid unnecessary suffering. You bring up an interesting argument, but I think there is some nuance here. I am not arguing that we have an obligation to propagate human life for the sake of propagating human life; I just think there is a risk of devaluing existing human life by claiming it ought not to have existed in the first place. There are limitations here. e.g. if one is offended at the claim that Down Syndrome is something to be cured, it may be that one is placing too much emphasis on identifying the expression of an individual’s genes with the individual himself (so e.g. eliminating the extra chromosome is not analogous to eliminating the person himself). We wouldn’t do this with a broken bone, but the solution to a broken bone is setting the bone, whereas the “solution” to Down Syndrome has historically been abortion. | |
| ▲ | calf 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | So what if one doesn't exist yet and another could be? Then both are possibilities. Your sentences look superifically logical but they make no actual sense. | | |
| ▲ | 9dev 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I'm not sure I get your point. Care to elaborate? In one case, we're talking about assured suffering. In the other, the absence of suffering. Both are hypothetical, but in one case, we know about the outcome. There's obviously a difference here. | | |
| ▲ | calf 2 days ago | parent [-] | | When you saying something like "we are talking about assured suffering" it is so unrigorous I cannot even begin to reply. Maybe read some philosophical literature. Or just the 5 w's like in grade school. Who suffers? Why is suffering bad? Why this comparison and not other comparative demarfations? What about second-order social effects? Could that increase suffering in some way? Serious ethicists grapple with these questions because they cannot assume a premise of 20th century nuclear-family hypotheticals (your error) removed from the societal context. And so on. |
|
| |
| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
|
|
| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [deleted] |
|
| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| [deleted] |