| ▲ | pornel 3 days ago |
| Go's goroutines aren't plain C threads (blocking syscalls are magically made async), and Go's stack isn't a normal C stack (it's tiny and grown dynamically). A C function won't know how to behave in Go's runtime environment, so to call a C function Go needs make itself look more like a C program, call the C function, and then restore its magic state. Other languages like C++, Rust, and Swift are similar enough to C that they can just call C functions directly. CPython is a C program, so it can too. Golang was brave enough to do fundamental things its own way, which isn't quite C-compatible. |
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| ▲ | 9rx 2 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| > CPython is a C program Go (gc) was also a C program originally. It still had the same overhead back then as it does now. The implementation language is immaterial. How things are implemented is what is significant. Go (tinygo), being a different implementation, can call C functions as fast as C can. > ...so it can too. In my experience, the C FFI overhead in CPython is significantly higher than Go (gc). How are you managing to avoid it? |
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| ▲ | pornel a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I think in case of CPython it's just Python being slow to do anything. There are costs of the interpreter, GIL, and conversion between Python's objects and low-level data representation, but the FFI boundary itself is just a trivial function call. | | |
| ▲ | 9rx a day ago | parent [-] | | > but the FFI boundary itself is just a trivial function call. Which no different than Go, or any other language under the sun. There is no way to call a C function other than trivially, as you put it. The overhead in both Python and Go is in doing all the things you have to do in order to get to that point. A small handful of languages/implementations are designed to be like C so that they don't have to do all that preparation in order to call a C function. The earlier comment included CPython in them. But the question questioned how that is being pull off, as that isn't the default. By default, CPython carries tremendous overhead to call a C function — way more than Go. |
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| ▲ | johnisgood 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I would like to know this, too. |
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| ▲ | hinkley 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I wonder if they should be using something like libuv to handle this. Instead of flipping state back and forth, create a playground for the C code that looks more like what it expects. |
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| ▲ | johnisgood 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| What about languages like Java, or other popular languages with GC? |
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| ▲ | lmm 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Java FFI is slow and cumbersome, even more so if you're using the fancy auto-async from recent versions. The JVM community has mostly bitten the bullet and rewritten the entire world in Java rather than using native libraries, you only see JNI calls for niche things like high performance linear algebra; IMO that was the right tradeoff but it's also often seen as e.g. the reason why Java GUIs on the desktop suck. Other languages generally fall into either camp of having a C-like stack and thread model and easy FFI (e.g. Ruby, TCL, OCaml) and maybe having futures/async but not in an invisible/magic way, or having a radically different threading model at the cost of FFI being slow and painful (e.g. Erlang). JavaScript is kind of special in having C-like stack but being built around calling async functions from a global event loop, so it's technically the first but feels more like the second. | | | |
| ▲ | pjc50 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | C# does marshal/unmarshal for you, with a certain amount of GC-pinning required for structures while the function is executing. It's pretty convenient, although not frictionless, and I wouldn't like to say how fast it is. | |
| ▲ | andrewflnr 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Similar enough to C I guess, at least in their stack layout. | |
| ▲ | fnord123 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's explained in the article. |
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