It has some benefits, the battery life (you aren't getting 15 hours from it doing a normal workload), keyboard, cameras, are pretty similar to many other laptops. Linux exists so a pale imitation isn't needed, its not light, and there are plenty of as good if not better back up options.

What about the overall quality of the software and hardware being rather poor? No repair-ability, a limited OS now, low quality glass covering the screens, lack of long term support for many laptops now?

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PaulRobinson 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You are 100% getting 15 hours from a normal workload. The keyboard is better than any other laptop keyboard. The camera is better than any other laptop integrated webcam.

The quality of the software is same or better as Linux (because getting all your Linux desktop and command line software running is a brew install away).

The hardware is class leading. The screens are best in class. The laptops will last you 8-10 years and then you can install a Linux on them and keep them going for another 5.

Yes, repairability is poor, but improving.

I get why people make other choices, but the idea that Apple hardware is poor quality and the software is terrible just isn't the way to do it. Argue about purity of freedom, argue about cost (Apple hardware is expensive, because it's superb), argue about crappy dev account policies like the thread is here to support.

But, y'know, don't just make up stuff anybody who uses this stuff daily knows is just made up...

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ktallett 9 hours ago | parent [-]

HP have a better webcam (Higher res and better colours), Z Book and Framework have the same keyboard basically, the software is no where near as good (far more locked down), considering M series have been out for 5 and many had very speedy failures I doubt 8-10 years especially for the base models on low ram. Multicore scores (so for any form of simulation or parallel computing) work M series are not even in the conversation in comparison with the latest AMD and Intel. Another key issue is due to architecture change, their reusability once they become unusable in their current form means its Asahi or nothing.

Repairability is non existant, a battery and some ports is not anything to shout about.

I have used Macs since the early 90's when they were repairable, pretty much consistently and I still have to on occassion but they have dropped the ball on every aspect. From the late 90's repairability and innovation have gone downhill. The late 00's to the early 10's brought it back and ever since then bar the odd thing that is pretty but less practical, just look at the touch bar and the removal of ports.

I have had Thinkpads, ZBooks, and other laptops such as Lets Note easily as long as a macbook and yes some of the pretty may be missing but that isn't what I focus on in devices.

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MaxikCZ 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

"Basically the same keyboard" but the Mac one has light comming only trough letters on keycaps, while my HP zbook is leaking more light around them, even worse when viewed from an angle.

Speedy failures of several tousand units when they are selling millions. + having it repaired is not a dreadful experience as with other PC makers (have horrendous experiences with HP, Asus and LG).

Multiscore? Sure, the laptop that sounds overshadows my robot vacuum can do slightly more work in a short timespan, id rather not have to deal with uncomnfortable temperatures when its just sitting on a desktop, doing who knows what (probably not indexing my files, as the search function just have no idea the file I opened 20x in the last 2 weeks exists). Which bring us to software: is it more closed and do I hate it for it? Sure. Is it worse overall? Not a chance.

Repairability is "bring it to an applestore and possibly come out with a new device right away, or wait a week. Miles ahead than any other brand. Sure, you can change the battery yourself, but you either get shafted for oem battery, or wonder why that cheap battery from shady shop runs just as bad as your old one. What good is repairing 5 year old HP thats breaking apart, overheating at idle, with screen burning out, hinges having a play, with speakers of a joke quality, with so many bad memories, when you can have non-repaired 10 year old macbook and it still feel like new.

For work I have windows machine because I need to use windows apps, but at home I am m1 macbook air (costing less than 1/4 of my zbook workstation), and apart from raw power its better in every. single. way.

	▲	bigyabai 3 hours ago \| parent [-]
		> having it repaired is not a dreadful experience as with other PC makers ...if you have AppleCare. If you don't, repairing a broken Macbook display will cost more than buying your dog leukemia medication. Ask how I found out!

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bayindirh 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Considering that my 17 year old MacBook only needed a new battery in the process, I can say that they're dependable machines (also ~20 Macs around me confirms this little statistic of mine).

On the simulation performance, you came to the right place, because I'll be developing a BEM code for material simulation. I can test it on both M series and on a cluster and see how big the gap is. Intel based Macs were pretty on par with their server siblings. I expect to be able extract similar performance from M based systems with some tight coding.

If you believe that Asahi's changes won't distilled to mainstream Linux, you're mistaken. Marcan might have fought with the kernel devs, but somebody will carry these changes in another form sooner or later. Macs wont't be Asahi or MacOS only systems for long. I think you can understand this better than me, because as far as I understand, we're using these things called computers for a similar amount of time.

BTW, you're citing Thinkpads and Z-Books which are the two machine classes which can claim some parity with MacBooks. They are the same class machines basically, so you have some bias in your views. This is what I cited as "I have to beg the local distributors to...". So getting an equivalent Z-Book or Thinkpad is not 10x harder, but at least 3x more expensive for a similar configuration.

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bayindirh 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You're getting 15 when you're listening music all day while doing work. You get an hour or two more if you're working silent. If you want an equal keyboard to a MacBook, you will pay for top of the line systems from the big three (HP/Lenovo/Dell), and they are more expensive than their Apple equivalents for less hardware. I have never seen an equivalent internal webcam in none of any non-Apple notebooks, BTW. You can add a high end Logitech or a mirrorless camera, but that beats the purpose, of course.

Linux exists and improved a ton in the last two decades. It's great and is my primary OS, but macOS is not an imitation of Linux, by any stretch.

Tell me a backup solution which allows you plug your drive to a brand new computer, get a coffee and resume from the point you left, literally incl. open apps, documents, window positions, volume level, and even the playing song. I'm trying to contribute Back in Time in Linux and know Borg exists, but all of them are filling different roles. Windows / LLVM / BTRFS / ZFS snapshots are a thing but, none of them are easy to use by the layman.

"Low quality glass" issue exposed in 2014, and it's not "low quality glass", but "fragile coating" issue, and I believe it's due to harsh handling of the glass. Because, I have an 2008, 2014 and 2020 MacBooks. 2008 has an old fashioned matte screen, and 2014 and 2020 MacBook's screen coatings are almost spotless. They both have a single short line in the middle due to an oily key burned the coating because I didn't clean my keyboard and somehow pressed the machines so the keys made contact.

If you use an alcohol free screen cleaner (which is dirt cheap here) or a camera lens cleaning solution, with a clean cloth (e.g. the one Apple provides inside the box), you can't damage the screen. Of course, Apple can go above and beyond and use fluorine coatings on these screens (which are used in high end camera lenses), which will easily double the price of the whole machine.

I agree on the repairability, but I'll note something else: dependability. None of my Macs needed any service. 2014 one needs a new battery after 10 years, and that's acceptable. One friend managed to fry their MacBook Air by abusing it a bit with AI workloads, but it's fixed under warranty for manufacturing error. I know ~20 people with Macs, and nobody except two (who both emptied a mug coffee on their keyboards) needed a service.

Also, on the iPhone side, if you send your phone in for battery replacement, any damaged part of your phone will be replaced free of charge if there's no external damage on that part. Apple changed my speaker for free on my iPhone, because they found its performance subpar. No info, no questions asked. "We changed your battery and speaker. You only pay for battery. Enjoy your phone, have a nice day". That's good service if you ask me, and the phone returned in a condition that nobody could tell that thing was opened and its battery replaced. The phone was out of warranty for 2 years when that happened.

On the OS side, there's no real limitation except you need to enable external kernel modules via recovery menu, and if we're talking about SIP, praising Nix and immutable systems and loathing macOS SIP is hypocrisy, so there's that.

On the reliability of macOS underpinnings, that laptop is up for 60 days (because of an update induced reboot), and it never crashes and fragments its memory so nothing works. So, I don't know if that this is not reliable, what is.

By long term, you mean 7 years? Heck, you can't even get 7 years of support and spare parts for enterprise hardware unless you pay an arm and a leg (don't ask me how I know), and Apple gives you 7 years of HW/SW support for anything they build. How this is not LTS?