> I have muscle memory of Vim.

I respect the preferences of others but I think that most people overfit for muscle memory. I've switched OSes/editors/IDEs many times in my career. Every time, the first day or two I feel like "This is the worst fucking thing ever, I can't even type God damn it I want to set the computer on fire and become a farmer."

But... that passes. After a couple of days, I have new muscle memory and it's fine. It would be a shame to let a few days of discomfort control which software I use when software varies in its other capabilities so much more widely than just keybindings.

▲

aequitas 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

But there is only so much room for muscle memory or context to switch between. I tried Helix for a while, got used to it and I really liked it, especially the noun verb order being different from vim. Seeing what you have selected before performing the action. But for me the problem is that vim is everywhere I go or will eventually end up. All my servers have vim. Every server I need to randomly debug has vim or vi. So my muscle memory for vim keeps getting refreshed as well. And switching between the two constantly is just a pain. I could take along Helix to all these servers. But that is not practical nor do I need all the features Helix uses. Or I would miss specific feature which I then also have to bring along.

Now I’ve settled with Zed as desktop editor/IDE and still use vim on remotes. The context switch between a desktop app en cli is big enough that it’s never a problem. I don’t even use the vim bindings in Zed.

▲

munificent 18 hours ago | parent [-]

> But there is only so much room for muscle memory or context to switch between.

People can learn to juggle plates while riding a unicycle. They can play prog rock on two-necked guitars. A handful of keybindings is like a drop in the bucket for what our nervous system is capable of encoding.

	▲	xpe 16 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Fear and doubt are mighty enemies. “Did I make the right choice?” haunts us all. But when exploration is (temporarily at least) an end in itself, trying a new sword, moat-digging technique, or trebuchet mechanism is inherently satisfying.

▲

notnmeyer 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

i know many very smart people that insist that their muscle memory makes it impossible to switch editors or shells.

i respect the perspective of “i like my tools and have no reason to switch”.

what i feel is constantly missed if the understanding that your regular tools are literally one command away. learning something new doesn’t mean you can’t also take advantage of your muscle memory as necessary.

▲

skavi 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

personally i just find verb noun editing a tiny bit more fun than noun verb.

you craft an incantation that either does everything right or backfires. there’s no feedback while said incantation is being constructed.

practically, noun verb is much better of course.

▲

cayley_graph 18 hours ago | parent [-]

I think noun-verb is worse; I'm unsure where the idea comes from that Helix's (or Kakoune's) editing model is better. Bear with my short rant. :-)

I don't want or need pre-emptive visual feedback on every keystroke, because it's a tool I use every day. I want an editing language that allows me to develop a mental model of it, so that I can _avoid_ round-tripping most edit actions visually. The primary advantage of the Vi editing language has never been speed (though that tends to be a secondary one), it's that it saves you from thinking about editing. Visual feedback also adds noise; it's especially distracting when you're moving around reading code. It's not an automatic win except when you're learning. Finally, if I really need it, I'm using a modal editor! I can simply switch into visual mode for complex edits. That's the modal solution.

And in exchange for (ime, annoying) visual feedback I have to give up things like the repeat last edit '.' key, and operator pending mode (see :omap), and more... which isn't palatable to me. Of course, everyone works differently; different strokes. But it's not obviously better, in a lot of ways.

I _am_ envious of the complete default configuration Helix has. Though it seems like that's planned from Neovim in the near future, alongside multicursor (filed under 'super macros'), looking at their roadmap.

	▲	teo_zero 11 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		I strongly agree. I have mixed feelings about Neovim adopting multicursor. Doesn't setting multiple cursors and then acting on them belong in the noun-verb camp? Unless you call it multivisual, of course!
	▲	4b11b4 11 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		damn. noun verb makes spell casting visually noisy and... as if you didn't know your spells and havent yet adopted 100% typing accuracy --- the feedback (visual noise) just makes you weak anyways. just `u` and helix inherently loses `.`