It can be both. You're creating a false dichotomy.

https://www.bu.edu/history/files/2015/04/Khalaji-Apocalyptic...

Mutual destruction makes sense when you're a death cult and the enemy is evil. Iran nuking Israel knowing full well they will get nuked back IS rational if your belief is that Allah will reward you for it in the afterlife and they do sincerly believe that.

You should read books published by reformed Islamists. Radical by Maajid Nawaz is a good one.

They profess to believe (and they are sincere) that they will be rewarded for dying killing Israelis. There's a reason that if I tell you a story about a suicide bomber blowing up a public square in political protest you do not have to wonder what religion they are. It's not because all Muslims are insane, they aren't, it's because some of them have beliefs that make that action rational.

(For example, see how Hamas will not surrender even when offered free passage out of Gaza. They'd rather Israel grind their way through the Palestinian population bomb by bomb because they think every Palestinian killed goes to heaven. If they were rational as we understand the world, they'd realize their plight is hopeless and the only thing they ensure by staying is civillian deaths.)

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samjones33 8 hours ago | parent [-]

>(For example, see how Hamas will not surrender

Yup.

Hamas will fight to the last Palestinian. They could have ended the Gaza war a year ago (or more). All they have to say is: "Here are the hostages. Here are our weapons. We are now shoemakers."

Why don't they do this?

Because they would rather fight to the last Palestinian child.

Hamas has agency. They could end war any time since October 8, 2023.

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mattmaroon 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Because they are a death cult. They sincerely believe exactly what they profess, everyone who Israel kills is a martyr and goes to heaven with extra benefits.

From their perspective it’s all wins. Every bomb Israel drops sends their people to heaven and makes Israel look bad to the world.

The hardest part of conversing with a lot of people about this situation is getting them to understand the idea of a death cult. Once you accept that some people not only don’t fear death but actively seek it for themselves and their tribe, the Middle East makes a lot more sense. There’s so much evidence both in what they say (they do not hide it) and what they do but so much of the west refuses to accept it.

	▲	samjones33 4 hours ago \| parent [-]
		Well said. What I try to emphasize is that Hamas has agency. They make the decision to keep fighting, or stop fighting. To deny Hamas agency is to dehumanize them. They have as much agency as Israel or any other actor. And they are a death cult. With two million Gazans between their tunnels and the IDF. There is no way to make that nice or neat or pleasant.

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8note 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

israel could also end it at any point, by not shooting, or by dissolving the whole state.

why do they not do this? israel has had the ability to end the war since before its inception.

the answer to why is no surprise, the same as hamas' reason to not surrender. the israeli goal is the disappearance of all palestinians, and hamas so happens to be made up of palestinians.

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dreghgh 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The PLO pulled out of Beirut in the early 1980s after being given guarantees from the international community that the remaining Palestinian population, unarmed civilians, would be protected both from Lebanese Christians and Israeli forces.

Then Israeli forces colluded with Christian militias to massacre Palestinians in their camps.

Hamas was never going to disarm and hand back the hostages based on "Trust me, bro".

	▲	samjones33 4 hours ago \| parent [-]
		There is not a single person in the Middle East who maps the behavior of Hamas to that of the PLO in the 1980's. Hamas is a death cult. They will fight to the last Gazan child. They have agency. They could end the war tomorrow, or a year ago.