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FirmwareBurner a day ago

>devs that can't touch type.

Hey, that's me :)

Out of curiosity, why is this a yardstick for SW developers? I assumed the more valuable skill of the profession would be critical thinking and problem solving skills, not finger dexterity on pressing buttons without looking. That's why I didn't become a secretary or court stenographer.

I mean, a lot of doctors can't hand write for shit, but is that in anyway relevant to being a good doctor?

What about SW devs with handicaps or mobility issues?

Touch typing feels like a pretty niche hill to die on.

hiAndrewQuinn a day ago | parent | next [-]

It's a signaling mechanism more than anything, as you can see from the other responses here.

"I can touch type" == "I spend enough time writing things on the computer every day that I have invested in the fluidity and comfort of my own hands" == "I'm enough of a nerd to actually be good at my job".

But it's also worth it from an ergonomics standpoint. I learned to touch type over the space of a few weeks of practice, meant years ago, and it's the reason I can use a split ortho keyboard today, which is much nicer on my wrists than the alternatives. I can also keep a notebook between the two keyboard halves which is much nicer to scribble on than having it to the side somewhere.

FirmwareBurner a day ago | parent [-]

>"I have invested in the fluidity and comfort of my own hands"

That's exactly why I don't touch type.

Forcing my hands in the optimal "home-row" positioning for touch typing gives me wrist pain. Moving my hands towards my most comfortable position disables the ability to touch type.

>It's a signaling mechanism more than anything, as you can see from the other responses here.

Firstly, what if that type of signaling is flawed and might even be discriminatory if applied to screening people for an actual job, especially that SW devs conder themselves highly liberal and open minded to diversity.

Secondly, I also can't fathom how keeping my eyes focused on one screen continuously for long periods is healthy for them versus exercising them having to occasionally refocus towards the keyboard and back.

Thirdly, even if I would touch type, my job needs me to take my eyes of the "IDE screen" occasionally to look at other things like datasheets, PCBs, notes, etc. Then the amount of distractions in the office far outpace any supposed efficiency gains from not having to take my eyes off the screen, so there's no benefit to it anyway as the job has many other bottlenecks.

Reading the comments on this thread, makes me feel like I'm watching that scene from American Psycho where they're all in their bubble flaunting and judging each others' business card designs when they're all the same design. Glad I don't work with such judgmental individuals who scrutinize such pointless details like the way you type, as if their way is the only right way. Must be a nightmare.

>"I'm enough of a nerd to actually be good at my job".

Well then, I guess I'm lucky to be good at my engineering job without the way I type being an issue.

bjornasm 12 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

>Thirdly, even if I would touch type, my job needs me to take my eyes of the "IDE screen" occasionally to look at other things like datasheets, PCBs, notes, etc.

What if I told you that touch typing means you could do that while you are typing.

skydhash a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Let me start by stating that touch typing is orthogonal to coding well.

The nice thing about touch type is to not think about typing. One quick glance to position your hands on the home row (there’s helper on F and J), and then whatever you want to write just flow out. While I use two thumbs to type this on mobile, I’m mostly using my peripheral vision. Typing on a real keyboard is better as I have better feedback and can use all my fingers.

It’s only one reason: No need to think about typing, it’s all muscle memory.

FirmwareBurner a day ago | parent [-]

Not sure why you assume people who don't touch type actually need to think about typing.

icedchai a day ago | parent | next [-]

Yes. I don't "touch type" in the traditional way. I have my own technique I developed when I was a teenager. I don't look at the keyboard and I don't "hunt and peck". I basically use index/middle/ring fingers on each hand for most of the keyboard, thumbs mostly handle the spacebar and alt keys, left pinky is mostly for shift, control, tab, right pinky is mostly for return, backspace, arrow keys, etc.

cdash 20 hours ago | parent [-]

Same here. Whatever I do could not be defined as traditional touch typing but it kind of works. I definitely do not look at the keyboard at all but my fingers kind of just hover over the keyboard instead of resting on the home row.

wredcoll a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Because that's the definition of touch typing. What did you think it meant?

Also signals are heuristics and thus important because it's impossible to evaluate everything from first principles every time.

FirmwareBurner a day ago | parent [-]

>Because that's the definition of touch typing

Touch typing means not looking at the keyboard while typing, not not-thinking about typing.

>What did you think it meant?

What do YOU think it means?

Can't you not touch type while still not thinking about typing?

Am I the only human capable of doing an activity while not thinking about it?

hiAndrewQuinn a day ago | parent | prev [-]

I never said I thought it was a good signal. Please don't go around shooting the messenger like that.

FirmwareBurner a day ago | parent [-]

I think you misunderstood me or I made myself misunderstood. I wasn't "shooting" you, I know what you were saying, I have no issue with your PoV.

I chose to reply to you while addressing the rest of the comments since yours distills them, so it makes sense to reply to all in one comment than to each individually. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

sureglymop a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I would personally say that you should ignore it.

Programming isn't bottlenecked by how fast you can enter or type text, it is about focusing and thinking and then solving a problem. In other words, being able to enter text faster does not imply also being able to solve a problem faster.

I would even say that on the contrary, taking longer and reflecting on what you are typing more may perhaps result in a better quality solution of the problem being solved.

orthoxerox a day ago | parent [-]

It's not bottlenecked, but it's much easier to think about a problem if I don't have to think about typing at the same time.

CactusRocket a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Thoughts go faster than fingers. It's already hard enough to keep up with my stream of thoughts when coding, when I'm touch typing pretty fast. I can't imagine my coding experience if I had to look at the keyboard to input my thoughts into the editor. It's subjective, everyone has a different experience, but I feel I would be severely impaired.

climb_stealth a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Consider me amazed! I would have thought it's something people pick up naturally by virtue of spending hours every day working with a keyboard.

I wouldn't link it to competency as a dev.

EduardoBautista a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It’s exactly because of having more valuable things to do that you should have typing just be a subconscious act instead of having to take your eyes off the monitor all the time.

chuckadams a day ago | parent | next [-]

I'm pretty sure most devs who can't touch-type aren't hunting and pecking either. I never learned the "proper" home-row technique, and type with four fingers most of the time, but neither am I looking down unless I'm making enough typos that I need to realign my fingers. No one gives me crap about that because well, the people I hang around with just aren't that damaged.

mbeex a day ago | parent | next [-]

Did this for 30 years. Two years ago I finally took the time to acquire the whole thing.

There is no way back. Relaxed posture, no UI elements stealing my focus unnoticed, parallelism (partially): continually "big-picturing" text; speaking with people while typing. The rhythm of this motoric skill and his quite specific form of memory alone, strangely decoupled from and coupled to the other mental processes at the same time, the interplay is simply marvelous.

chuckadams a day ago | parent [-]

I grew up on all those "typing tutor" programs, and hated every moment of them, even the extra-game-ified ones. But at least they weren't high school typing classes like my gf took, those seemed like some proper sweatshop training. Would love to learn piano too, another thing I couldn't focus enough to make happen, but I guess I'm more comfortable now knowing my limits, and there's worse things to regret ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

kstrauser a day ago | parent | prev [-]

If you’re not looking at your hands, you’re touch typing.

I move my hands around as I type, too. I learned piano before typing, and it’s weird to me to try and keep them in one place. I type as fast as I’d ever want or need to, though, so I couldn’t care less if it’s not “proper”. I’d still say you and I both touch type.

skydhash a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes! It's quite nice not to have to think about typing. Just like you don't monitor the way you're handling a pen when you write. It's not related to being a good developer, but when you type as much as you do, having it done quickly and with the help of muscle memory helps with cognitive load.

In other words, the only thing I think about is what to write, not how I do it.

moron4hire a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Exactly. Because of this, I tend to think that there are no useless skills, or skills not worth refining as far as possible. Sure, there is contention for which skill you refine now, but asking yourself "should I get better at X?" in isolation should almost always get answered "yes". The more things you're really good at (typing, mental math, sharpening a knife, fixing your computer, navigating and merging git commits, cooking food, cleaning house, etc), the less time you'll spend on each thing, giving you more time to do other things.

Plus, writing code is not the only kind of typing that I expect a developer to do. Even if I could accept that typing speed is not important for writing code, it's certainly important for writing documentation, good commit messages, communication with team mates and stakeholders, etc.

bee_rider a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Touch typing is not super useful. I picked it up naturally over time, but it was just an accident. In general, the desire to type fast is a symptom of insufficient automation.

It is sort of nice to turning your laptop screen red and dim, and code on a dark porch at night (OLED screen required to get real darkness). Just you, the vim, and some fireflies. Your eyes will adjust to the darkness, and maybe you’ll see some animals that you don’t normally see.

rpdillon a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I started programming in grade school, and never learned to touch type. I was faster than my teachers, and ended up becoming a professional dev without touch typing.

When I was 29, I got very bad RSI in my right wrist, and re-evaluated my whole computing life as a result: switched to dvorak, removed the mouse/touchpad in favor of keyboard-centric tools, and swapped to a trackball when the pointer was needed. I also learned to touch type.

Of all the changes I made, I think the one with the most lasting value was touch typing. I didn't want to learn it, but I just bit the bullet, and I'm glad I did. It makes doing everything else on the computer very fluid and comfortable. It sounds like the touch typing position doesn't work for you, but the core point is that being able to effortlessly interface with the machine while your eyes can do something else is empowering.

I bothered writing this because I spent decades both before and after learning to touch type, so I feel I have some perspective on how they compare.

wredcoll a day ago | parent [-]

Did "touch type" get redefined to "using a very specific set of finger positions for each key" or something? I thought it was just typing without looking at the keyboard...

marssaxman a day ago | parent [-]

The term "touch typing" could be taken to literally mean just typing without looking at the keyboard, but in practice it usually refers to the style of typing where the eight fingers all rest on the home row.

hbnjgf a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As a software developer, written communication is your main output -- no matter whether it's code, Mails, documentation or presentations

Unless you are thinking slower than you are typing, you should invest in learning a basic and very easy skill

bena a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The main output of doctors is not written notes though.

Our main output is typed code.

Yes, our most valuable skill is critical thinking. So I don’t want to waste time and thought on wondering where the “f” key is. If I’m thinking about typing, I’m not thinking about the problem.

fc417fc802 a day ago | parent [-]

> Our main output is typed code.

Pretty sure my main output (at least by volume) is text files detailing things such as requirements, implementation strategies, and algorithmic tradeoffs.

dlachausse a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I see it as being willing to invest time into your craft. A few hours spent learning to touch type will save countless time over a lifetime.

It’s an invaluable skill not just for developers, but for anyone whose job requires frequent typing.

reaperducer a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Out of curiosity, why is this a yardstick for SW developers?

In my college, if you couldn't type 40 WPM, you didn't graduate.