| ▲ | maratc a day ago |
| That's the British system working as designed. If there's a law, no matter how ancient, the British should comply. If a law needs to be changed, that's the Parliament's job. Even the British courts, in sharp contrast to many other places, "deliver the law as it is, and not as we wish it to be" -- see for example [0] or [1]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashford_v_Thornton [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Owens_v_Owens |
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| ▲ | breggles a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| So, the full clause reads: "When the headroom of an arch or span of a bridge is reduced from its usual
limits but that arch or span is not closed to navigation, the person in control
of the bridge must suspend from the centre of that arch or span by day a
bundle of straw large enough to be conspicuous and by night a white light." Does that mean the law is not being complied with, in this case, since the bales are hanging from adjacent bridges, not the "centre of that arch or span" itself? |
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| ▲ | red_admiral 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Delays due to trucks striking bridges are a worldwide problem, at least in countries with railroads. Despite yellow black striped reflective panels and height warning signs and sometimes height detectors that trigger flashing red lights. Perhaps we should try a bale of straw next. The London Blackwall tunnel has a more modern take on checking height: https://maps.app.goo.gl/b5P5Td1hsuSjLU3w8 traffic signals, barriers like at a railroad crossing, giant panels across the road at height, and a police car on standby to pull out and fine anyone that doesn't read the signs - I presume this happens often enough that they can justify the cost. But then the bale of straw applied to ships not vehicles and bridges not tunnels. | | |
| ▲ | walthamstow 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Your link shows the Dartford Crossing, an M25 bridge miles downstream of the City. The Blackwall Tunnel runs under the Thames at Greenwich and afaik just has the old school hanging metal blocks at height https://maps.app.goo.gl/N5xSF148ggLVTDtS8 It doesn't surprise me too much that police are on standby, a closure of either tunnel or bridge has a major effect on traffic all over London | | |
| ▲ | peteri 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There are additional traffic lights on the blackwall tunnel further in and a slip road out that can be used for overheight vehicles. I do remember having a 10-15 minute wait once while they sorted things out when a lorry driver got caught. I'd have a feeling there are automated signs prior to the tunnel (or at least used to be) but I've not been through the tunnel for a year or so and things will have changed with the Silvertown tunnel opening. I have seen someone not paying attention at the Rotherhithe tunnel and the roof of their van was a mess (and they're going to pick up a fine probably due to restrictions, the 2 tonnes gross weight limit is lower than a lot of van drivers expect) Edit there were:
https://maps.app.goo.gl/MP7fkhS394DJPQaZ9
If you zoom in you can see the overheight vehicle warning. | | |
| ▲ | red_admiral 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | I presume the Blackwall one is that unlit LED sign just at the start of the off-ramp. Then there's another set of height detectors on the same post to catch out anyone who's still not paying attention. I question who approved that the main lanes ahead of your link have 2.8m/9ft limits but the police warning says vehicles over 4m/13ft will be stopped. Can I take my 10ft truck through or not? I'm starting to feel a tiny bit of sympathy for drivers that get confused by this. |
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| ▲ | red_admiral 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You're right of course. Blackwall seems also to have two sets of lights and barriers, and an off-ramp in between. That's probably for fire safety too to close and evacuate the tunnel and get the emergency services in, but I imagine it's used for height detection too if a loud CLUNK on your truck cabin isn't enough. As an aside, the person who signed the original heights as (13ft)(4m)(9ft)(2.8m) needs to learn a bit about UI design. Yes, two lanes, but the gap between the central two signs is far smaller than to the other sign for the same lane. Also 4m is just over 13 ft 1 inch, which there'd be space to include as there's already a 0 on the leftmost sign (and from the rightmost we see that decimals are allowed on signs). Guess we're going to rely on the CLUNK after all. |
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| ▲ | pjmlp 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | In Germany even this wasn't enough, in a couple of bridges they had to constrain the road leading to the bridge in a way that only small cars would still be able to reach the bridge under repairs. I also imagine it wasn't cheap doing this, but apparently as long as people can get away with something there is always those that will try, regardless of how it impacts others. | | |
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| ▲ | ipsin a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Thanks, I was annoyed that the article didn't cite the actual law in question, but the BBC comes in with "Port of London Thames Byelaws, clause 36.2" https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cmlrx89jdv2o | | |
| ▲ | maratc a day ago | parent [-] | | The BBC also didn't call it "ancient," which would be questionable considering that the law is from 2012. | | |
| ▲ | alexbilbie a day ago | parent [-] | | Its an ancient practise, codified into law in 2012 when the regulatory framework was re-codified from multiple laws like Port of London Act 1908 as well as time immemorial acts like this. | | |
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| ▲ | maratc a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think you'd need a couple of "solicitors" -- or maybe even "barristers" -- to decide on that. I'm neither :) |
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| ▲ | mr_toad 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Even the British courts, in sharp contrast to many other places, "deliver the law as it is, and not as we wish it to be" The English practically invented the idea of common law. Even today there are still important legal principles based entirely on the decisions of earlier courts. |
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| ▲ | Projectiboga 10 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | A formal UK Constitution doesn't exist and is a striking example of this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_K... The constitution of the United Kingdom comprises the written and unwritten arrangements that establish the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland as a political body. Unlike in most countries, no official attempt has been made to codify such arrangements into a single document, thus it is known as an uncodified constitution. This enables the constitution to be easily changed as no provisions are formally entrenched. | | |
| ▲ | pessimizer 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | In the US we only have a remnant of that in the Senate, in what has been popularly marketed as "the Nuclear Option." A Senator just makes a point of order that a Senate rule is the opposite of what it actually, verifiably is. The chair denies it, the Senator appeals the decision, and a majority of the Senate then overrules the chair. After this has happened, the rule just changes and whatever was not in order in the past is in order in the future (or vice versa.) In the Senate as in Parliament; the majority of Parliament is the law, it can't break the law. |
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| ▲ | pessimizer 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | There are still important legal principles in the US and other places around the world based entirely on the decisions of earlier English courts. The first local decisions will reference English cases, and English legal experts often would have been consulted. Same thing with most of the world's parliaments and congresses having to reference English Parliamentary precedent in order to figure out how to operate themselves. The UK Parliament and courts may be terrible, but they invented the thing and we're forks. | | |
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| ▲ | dghf a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In what places do courts ignore or modify law to deliver the result they prefer? (To be precise: where is that accepted practice, rather than aberrant behaviour by some judges?) |
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| ▲ | maratc a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Usually the judges do not "ignore or modify" the law, but rather "interpret" it in a creative manner. You might use, as an example, the question of "does the US Constitution guarantee the women a right to abortion." Some judges decided that it does, later some other judges decided that it does not. Considering the opposing outcomes to the same question, it's clear some of these were wrong. | | |
| ▲ | userbinator 18 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | In the US, it's usually enforcement that's ignored. | | |
| ▲ | AngryData 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | That is why everything is illegal 3x over. If they don't like you, you get farked. If they like you, they just ignore it. |
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| ▲ | ljm 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Letter of the law vs. spirit of the law. One could argue that 'a corporation has personhood' is a technical contrivance that tries to manipulate the letter of the law into achieving a particular outcome. Going with the spirit of the law instead, that argument would never hold water. |
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| ▲ | wisty 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The US. There are vague rights in the constitution. It could be a disaster for the courts to interpret them too literally (Is literally any weapon OK in the 2nd? Does free speech include a mob boss ordering a hit?) and constitutions are really hard to amend, so heavy interpretation is a nessessary evil. | | |
| ▲ | wirrbel 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | That is an interesting example because the second amendment is I think a primary example of a law that is very creatively read by folks that consider themselves literalists. if the 2nd amendmend was literally interpreted it would be (quoting from memory) “in order to form a well-ordered militia the right to bear arms shall not be infringed” As in you cannot infringe the right to bear arms in a well ordered militia, but gun ownership might be regulated for example by the militia organization owning the arms. Nothing would speak against codifying in law what constitutes a well-ordered militia, etc. | | |
| ▲ | treis 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Your memory is a bit off. The text is: >A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed It's the only amendment that comes with a justification so it's unusual but there's nothing in the text that limits the right to the listed justification. | |
| ▲ | bigstrat2003 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > if the 2nd amendmend was literally interpreted it would be (quoting from memory) “in order to form a well-ordered militia the right to bear arms shall not be infringed” I don't agree at all that this is a case of creative reading. The actual text of the amendment is "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Note that the text does not say "in order to" or anything like that, which is why interpretation of this amendment gets controversial. Was the intent that bearing arms is only a right insofar as people are part of a local militia? Was the intent that people must have the right to bear arms and the militia was simply cited as one example of why? It is genuinely unclear from the text, which means that no matter what we do we have to layer our own interpretation on top. That doesn't mean anyone is reading the law creatively, that's just the unfortunate facts of having to deal with an unclear text. | |
| ▲ | Joker_vD 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's... how the 2nd amendment used to be treated, actually: state laws against conceit carry have lo-o-ong history, and they've been held to be perfectly constitutionally until recently. Oh, and "well-regulated" used to mean "well trained and supplied" back in those day. And the 2nd actually reads (if you fix its grammar since it's ungrammatical by the standards of the modern English language) "since the well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" — now notice that it's a conditional rule, and its premise in "since..." is no longer true, militias are not necessary for the security of a country; and so the conclusion should lose its power. And arguably it's what the Founders intended: if they meant it as an absolute rule, they would've omitted the first part of it and would have simply stated that "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed", period. |
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| ▲ | davidw 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The Supreme Court in the United States has been playing a looooot of "Calvinball" recently. They've never been completely immune from it, but it has gotten a lot more nakedly political. | | |
| ▲ | DoingIsLearning 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | Off topic but I am now old enough that more than once Calvinball references were lost with my co-workers. I was surprised (and then sad) at the realization that Bill Watterson is fading from the cultural ethos as I age. | | |
| ▲ | bregma 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Gone are the days when everyone was spammed with Monty Python references. The Gen-Zs in my office haven't even heard of, let alone viewed, the Holy Grail so half the references our boss lays out are lost on them. At least it's not dead yet. On the other hand, I had to ask them what a Kirby was. I'm still not sure but I know it's pink. | | |
| ▲ | aaronbaugher 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That's sad. It's not like when I was watching Holy Grail in the late 80s it was in theaters, and the "effects" weren't good enough when it was made to become dated. We watched it and lots of other stuff on VHS because it was good, regardless of when it was made. I suppose some of the jokes depend on cultural things that might not be taught as well anymore, like the Trojan Horse. But most of it is about human nature, so it seems like that should hold up. | |
| ▲ | alnwlsn 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Interesting, at least 10 years ago, everyone in my school knew Monty Python. Maybe that's because it was on Youtube at the time. Not really the case anymore; some is still there but a lot has been removed - you're not going to find 'Holy Grail part 1/11' these days. | |
| ▲ | eadmund 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > At least it's not dead yet. It’s pining for the fjords! |
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| ▲ | sethammons 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I've noticed similar. I quote lots of movies, usually one liners as appropriate. Between age and less uniform media exposure, my references more often than not fall flat. And I feel less connected. | | |
| ▲ | TheOtherHobbes 13 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If you talk to anyone under 30, there's a vague sense of 'the past' with a few landmark events - mostly Star Wars, Pokemon, Miyazaki. Beyond that it's all recent comics, superhero movies, video games, and anime, with a big subculture stanning book trends like romantasy. Most of what happened before 2000 doesn't seem to exist in cultural memory. It's not quite true that nothing that happened before 1950 exists at all. But you're not going to find many people who are interested in the art, music, literature, design, or architecture of earlier decades - never mind centuries. It's as a big a break as there was in the 60s. For that generation the 50s were still an influence, but anything earlier pretty much just disappeared. | | |
| ▲ | card_zero 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | I guess the sense of a rubicon at the end of the 40s was due to WW2, but why at the year 2000? Because phones? Or big round number effect, perhaps? The year 2000 was built up in our minds as when the future was expected to begin. (Every new gadget produced around 1990 was the Something2000. CarVacuum2000, Ionizer2000, SuperShoehorn2000, etc.) |
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| ▲ | bmacho 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > And I feel less connected. Watch whatever today's kids watch. | | |
| ▲ | card_zero 11 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The "less uniform media exposure" phrase invokes the (paranoid?) fear that we might lose common cultural reference points. In short, today's kids watch whatever. Though I'm sure we'd just find a new social script to work around the inability to quote Python. | |
| ▲ | mionhe 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I like to use the phrase "skibidi" wrong. My kids make the greatest faces. |
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| ▲ | eadmund 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > In what places do courts ignore or modify law to deliver the result they prefer? The United States. E.g. ‘the switch in time that saved nine,’ Wickard v. Filburn, Obergefell v. Hodges, Gonzales v. Raich and so forth. | |
| ▲ | mschuster91 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's common in both European courts (look at e.g. the history of homosexual marriages in the EU) and in the US ("Citizens United"). The core issue is that no Constitution, in fact no law or decree at all can account for all possibilities that real life offers, and so all the bodies of law are up for interpretation all the time. | | |
| ▲ | teamonkey 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is also the case in the UK. Where things are not crystal clear they are interpreted by judges and can become precedent (see the recent “definition of a woman” interpretation). The issue highlighted by, say, the Owens vs Owens example, is that the law as it stood was clear and not open to interpretation, though obviously unfair. The law needed to be changed, which required parliament. |
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| ▲ | rustcleaner 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| >If there's a law, no matter how ancient, the British should comply. If a law needs to be changed, that's the Parliament's job. If that's not religion, I don't know what is... |
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| ▲ | 4ndrewl 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's representative democracy. Religion is what it replaced. Where one person, with a clique of courtiers who personally relied on him for power, enacted whatever took their fancy. Their word was power, whether it was starting wars or forging alliances with unsavoury countries - and woebetide you if you challenged it. | |
| ▲ | makeitdouble 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Religion is notably harder to change than country laws. | | |
| ▲ | shakna 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | The hundreds of Protestant sects all cried out in anguish. The Hindu cults just rolled their eyes. Most religions are relatively flexible around beliefs. It tends to be particular sects that aren't... But they don't speak for the rest. | | |
| ▲ | prewett 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think you're conflating religious beliefs with ethics. You can't have a religion that is flexible on beliefs, otherwise it is not a religion, but the actual core religious beliefs are fairly limited. In Christianity, Jesus dying to reconcile the world to God is the whole point; without that it is something else. The whole point of Buddhism is that all emotions are pain, and that realizing that everything really nothing (since all composable things are impermanent and everything is composed) is the path to nirvana. All the other beliefs and ethics come out of this. But even "submarine" religions (ones that people do not think of as a religion) follow the pattern. Communists worship the State (or perhaps the Party), because the problem with society is the structure of society, so only the State can bring the salvation of equity. American Progressives worship sexual identity. Progressives are flexible--except if you don't accept a particular identity, think that gender is not malleable, refuse to use pronouns, etc. However, I think even "most religions" are not very flexible. 50% of the world's population are either Christian or Islam, and both are pretty prescriptive in the ethics. |
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| ▲ | ithkuil 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Religions is just one incarnation of a more fundamental trait of human psychology that allows us to build complex society. Belief in other shared made up things like law and even money works that way, and most of the world -isms too | |
| ▲ | zeristor 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There’s a word for that sort of thing, it just happens to be: antidisestablishmentarianism That is for the removal of the Church of England as the religion of England, but it’s along those lines. | | |
| ▲ | TRiG_Ireland 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | You have one too many negative prefixes there. The Church of England is already established. Those who want to remove that status are proposing disestablishment. Antidisestablishmentarianism is the desire to maintain the status quo. |
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| ▲ | 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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