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rusk 2 days ago

dB for sound in particular aligns with human experience. The (10 -) 1-10 on a volume knob typically aligns with a logarithmic scale because we hear differences in loudness at an order of magnitude.

A linear volume knob would be frustratingly useless as you would have to crank it many many many times the higher up you want to go. Presumably hundreds of times. A traditional pot couldn’t do that of course but maybe you could satisfy your curiosity with a rotary encoder?

losvedir 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Nothing in the article and nobody in the comments takes issue with the fact that it's logarithmic. It's everything else that's the problem. (It's a ratio where the base value is situation dependent, and the base of the logarithm varies.)

rusk 2 days ago | parent [-]

But the base value is well defined, qualitatively (“a quiet room”), which is fine for what we are talking about which is “experienced loudness”. Once you go past log(3) it really doesn’t matter what the noise was at log(0).

sanderjd 2 days ago | parent [-]

I'm sorry, but did you read the article? This is not the complaint.

If decibels were used only to measure sound relative to "experienced loudness" there would be no complaint.

The complaint is that it is used in many other ways, often without distinguishing what the base unit is.

rusk 2 days ago | parent [-]

The issue is that it’s not “well defined” that it’s somehow subjective. But the whole point with a logarithmic scale is the small values don’t matter.

sanderjd 2 days ago | parent [-]

This isn't what the article is about!

nomercy400 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Does that also work for showers, with mixing hot and cold water. I feel that a 1% change in the knob/balance goes from too cold to too hot.

detourdog 2 days ago | parent [-]

Nothing to do with decibels but the thermostat on the water heater might be set too high. If one lowers the overall temperature the ratio of cold to hot will balance.

rusk 2 days ago | parent [-]

You are bounded by a minimum floor for the hot water. Below a certain point you can get legionnaires.

To me it seems like one of two things: external pressure between hot and cold is mismatched so a small change to one side overwhelms the weaker flow.

Alternatively it might just be a broken or poor quality mixer that isn’t providing the appropriate ‘nuance’ of control, and that may indeed be expressed as some sort of non-linear relationship.

GuB-42 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Below a certain point you can get legionnaires.

I know you mean legionnaires' disease, but the idea of a bunch of soldiers getting to your house because you turned your boiler too low made me chuckle. Good thing the US have the third amendment to protect against this.

detourdog a day ago | parent [-]

In this day and age I believe anything is possible.

BlueTemplar a day ago | parent [-]

"What have the Romans ever done for us ?

... hot water baths ..."

detourdog 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The thermostat could still be set too high. I think you might be overstating the dangers of legionnaires.

It also a simple thing to check and would be the first step in my troubleshooting routine for this complaint.

Here is a link describing the dangers.

https://www.heatgeek.com/hot-water-temperature-scalding-and-...

IsTom 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You could have log Watts or something, it doesn't have to be dB to be logarithmic.

KeplerBoy 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

We have a unit for that. It's dBm and very easy to grasp. 0 dBm is 1 mW, every 10 dBm is an order of magnitude more (10 dBm = 10 mW).

dB is only confusing if people omit which quantities they are relating. If it's clear like in the case of dBm which relate to 1 mW, it's an awesome tool.

jfengel 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Unfortunately, people omit the quantities all the time. Domain experts assume it when talking to each other, and non-experts repeat it without knowing that it refers to anything at all. (I still don't really know what it means for a sound to have "decibels".)

jononor 2 days ago | parent [-]

When referring to sound in the physical world, "decibel" mean dB SPL (sound pressure level). Which is defined as the ratio to the smallest perceivable sound pressure level. Unfortunately that is still a bit underspecified, it may be measured with a frequency weighting like A weighting. And then there is the integration time or other temporal aggregation, but that is separate from decibel/log.

When in analog audio, it usually means dbV, relative to a reference voltage.

And in digital audio, usually dBFS - relative to the maximum amplitude that can be represented.

2 days ago | parent | prev [-]
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foxglacier 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You can't take the log of a quantity with units like watts. It would be log of some ratio of powers, and then it doesn't matter what unit of power you use because they cancel out. Instead, it matters what the denominator in the ratio is so we're back at needing something confusing like dB :(

rusk 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

That would be dishonest. You don’t adjust input power - you adjust attenuation

EDIT if you did let’s say approximate power, or measure and present the consumed power (as some systems do) you would still be in a situation about how to present this data. Do you present your users with a simple 1-10 (logarithmic) or a 10 digit display which sweeps over vast ranges of uninteresting values.

If you opted for a more compact scientific notation … well guess what that’s also logarithmic but in two parts LOL

2 days ago | parent [-]
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sgarland 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sure, but a. IME, volume controls with 1-10 are nowhere near log b. many manufacturers don’t even do this. A lot of car manufacturers seem to use 0-40 for the stereo volume, which seems completely arbitrary. I’m assuming they decided that’s a good balance between granularity and annoyance, but c’mon… couldn’t have at least capped it at 50? Halfway to 100 feels vaguely more intuitive.

This also doesn’t even begin to touch on frequency response curves.

2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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taneq 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ever have a cheap set of external speakers that got super loud in the first quarter turn of the volume knob but were pretty much the same loudness after that? Yeah, linear pot for the volume knob.

No need for an encoder and software, though, logarithmic pots are readily available for precisely this reason. :)

godsinhisheaven 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

This doesn't make any sense to me. Isn't this completely backwards? Wouldn't this behavior be expected from a logarithmic knob, and not a linear knob? I know what a logarithmic curve looks like, it rises quickly and then it tapers off, exactly the behavior you describe. But then you attribute that to a lineae knob! The parent comment confuses the hell out of me too, I am just really not putting 2 and 2 together here.

msandford 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

You're missing a critical piece of information. Human hearing (and vision) are logarithmic sensors.

Ears can register sounds from maybe 20-30 dB upwards of 120ish which isn't a factor of 4-6 in terms of power but rather a factor of 120-30=90 decibels or 9 bels or 10^9 or one billion.

Because your ears have absolutely enormous range you need the potentiometer (pot) to have a logarithmic taper to it. The amplifier has an essentially fixed amount of amplification so that's a fixed sound dB output. Your ears can hear a vast range. A linear pot essentially locks the entire output into the same 10 decibels as the amplifier maximum output through its linearity. Once you've turned it to 10% of the range it has precisely 10 decibels worth of range left. If you want to turn the volume down by 40 decibels you have to do that within the 0-10% part of the pot's range.

A logarithmic pot will give you maybe 40-60 decibels worth of adjustment by dividing things up differently. Every 20% of the range increases the output not by 20% but by a factor of 10 let's say. That gives you a pot with a range of 50 decibels which is enough that it roughly matches the absolutely miraculous range of the ear.

hansvm 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"logarithmic" here refers to the number on the scale being logarithmic in the sound pressure level. Restated, power is exponential in the knob value, which roughly matches human perception of a linear increase. An actual linear function is far too slow.

godsinhisheaven 2 days ago | parent [-]

Got it, so the sound pressure is logarithmic, but the sound power is exponential, and you can control both at once with one knob, and they, align, quite well I guess.

brazzy 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The point is that sound perception is logarithmic. You perceive a 10 times stronger air vibration as twice as loud. So if you have a knob that increases the power that produces the vibrations linearly, you hear a logarithmic increase.

You need a knob that increases power exponentially to hear a linear increase in loudness.

rusk 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

No I’ve never had one of those LOL

Pots do log and lin scales but they only have a limited angular range.

mattmanser 2 days ago | parent [-]

I've actually noticed this two days ago with some bluetooth headphones and my phone.

The volume control on my android phone was acting just like this when my headphones were connected. When changing the volume with the phone only a small section of the bottom quarter of the volume control actually made a difference, but the volume controls on the headphone themselves were acting "normally".

Usually the phone volume is fine, it only screws up on bluetooth devices (my speakers + my headphones). I have to use the volume control on the device itself to have any good control.

This explains the weird behaviour, the phone volume changes are being sent linearly, but the headphone/speaker settings are correct and being set logarithmically.

i.e. somewhere a developer working on the bluetooth integration didn't understand the difference, screwed up and never tested it. That it's happening to both my Edifier speakers and my cheapo headphones probably means it's on the stock Android end (it's a pixel phone).

Severian 2 days ago | parent [-]

I've had the same issues as you, and here are some things I've done or tried as a remedy.

Try going into Android "Developer options" and enable the option "Disable Absolute Volume". Some devices cannot handle the way Android maps the "master" volume of the system to Bluetooth. With the option enabled you will have a separate slider to adjust the Bluetooth volume, and the volume buttons will instead only control the "Media" volume.

An alternate thing to do is under the same Developer Options is instead of disabling Absolute control is to change the Bluetooth AVRCP version to at least v1.5. v1.5 AVRCP introduces the Absolute Volume control functionality.

But, it could also be what you may have are Bluetooth devices that do not support Absolute Volume, or lack AVRCP v1.5 compatibility. If none of this works, I suggest purchasing the "Precise Volume 2.0 + Equalizer" app. I use this as it gives you more fine-grained control over the number of steps in the volume slider (for example, I now have 100 steps). It also allows you to calibrate the number of steps to a specific device, so you can literally change how many steps from quiet to loud. It's worth all of the $10 it costs, and has other nice quality of life features as well.

ajuc 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Logarithmic scale aligns with human experience.

OP isn't criticizing logarithmic scale in general but dB in particular.

If dB in particular aligned well with human experience - volume knobs would be labeled with dB values instead of 1-11.

rectang a day ago | parent [-]

A properly designed volume control affects the sound power output logarithmically, but is labeled linearly (with 1-11 or 0-1 or something like that) to reflect how humans perceive the effect.

People in the field get this wrong all the time — for instance, the volume control on ChromeOS appears to be a linear multiplier, yielding a control with huge perceived steps in the output between 0 and 3, and negligible perceived change in the output between 7 and 10.

I suspect that the confusing design of the dB contributes towards how often such mistakes get made.