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cjs_ac 7 hours ago

I used to be a schoolteacher, so whenever I read about someone's shiny new EdTech idea, I can't help but think that it's a tarpit idea.

Every developed country has a set of professional standards for teachers, and teachers who don't live up to those standards are pushed out, sometimes by having their teaching accreditation revoked. In Australia, for instance, there's a set number of hours of 'professional development' that teachers have to do every few years, and if you don't complete them, you lose accreditation and have to find a new career. The professional development activities and courses that meet the requirements are audited by the Department of Education, and have to draw on the latest research in educational psychology: keeping up with the latest research is the entire point of that professional standard.

When I did my teacher training, the first thing we were told in the first lecture was to never cite any research older than ten years, because it would be out of date. Now, if you've trained in the sciences - I was a physicist - you should be troubled with this, because a discipline can't really accumulate knowledge about the world if it throws everything out after ten years. That's why, when I broke the rules and searched through the databases of academic literature going back more than ten years, I saw the same ideas being reinvented under different names in different decades.

So there seems to be a bit of a trend for people to build flashcard-type tools at the moment, probably because someone's seen a paper on spaced repetition. That's nice, but you can't build a business around this. It doesn't matter if all the thought leaders are all in on spaced repetition this year, because next year they'll have moved on to something else, because they need to have something new to talk about. In Australia and the UK at least (I don't know the figures for other countries), half of all teachers leave the profession within five years of joining it, so most of your user base is overenthusiastic twenty-somethings with no life experience (yes, I was one of these) who will do whatever The Research tells them, and the ones who stay long enough to gain leadership positions tend not to grow out of this, so the classroom side of EdTech is basically a bunch of fads, so it's impossible to build a stable business in this space.

If you want to sell software to schools, go and work in a bunch of them, find some obscure administrative problem, and solve that.

udit99 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Interesting. I don't mean to detract from your main point but as someone who's deeply into spaced repetition for the past 5-7 years (Daily Anki user + built my own spaced repetition systems for learning various skills), I find myself disagreeing with you on some things that you mentioned:

1. Spaced Repetition is not a fad. It's the most consistent and reliable way we we know for rote memorization (conditions apply). And it's not a new thing either. It's been around since the late 1800s. It just wasnt practical until the advent of computers and mobile devices. So I'm skeptical that there is another "something else" to move on to that is as impactful as SRS.

2. Not sure what the state of education in Australia these days but speaking strictly from my school days in India (1980s-1990s), something like spaced repetition would have been a godsend for every single student. And I'm 100% sure a vast majority of schools and teachers still havent heard of it.

3. I've been learning German for the past few years from some of the top private institutes in Vienna, Austria and let me tell you that neither the teacher, nor the students have any idea about spaced repetition.

That said, you're probably right about the business-viability of such ventures because of the difficulty of selling to the decision-makers, I just strongly disagree about Spaced Repetition being a "flavor of the year"

cjs_ac 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Sure, but there are all sorts of pendulum shifts in the teaching zeitgeist. Spaced repetition was just an app-based example: it's been a few years since I was in the classroom so I'm not sure what the flavour of the year is, but if spaced repetition were currently popular amongst schoolteachers, the swing away from it that I would expect to see would be to argue that memorisation isn't really learning and that learning experiences should be about developing deeper understanding, and so on. There is no measure of 'best practice'; a lot of these shifts are driven by personal preference.

udit99 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> argue that memorisation isn't really learning and that learning experiences should be about developing deeper understanding, Agreed, but if you ask anyone who's SR for any amount of time will tell you: It's realllly hard to be effective with it if you don't understand the underlying concept. The order of operations is "first understand, then drill". Of course, this comes with nuance. There are things that just have to be drilled and others that don't even need any drilling if you understand the concept. And I'd expect those educators to know the difference.

> There is no measure of 'best practice'; a lot of these shifts are driven by personal preference.

Again, you're probably right but using the example of SR threw me off because it's the one thing where I think the data is so clear that it's easily justifiable.

sokoloff 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I didn’t read GP as making a judgment that spaced repetition was new or a fad, but rather that in the environment of how education decision-makers shift focus to new things, it’s a current flavor-of-the-year.

We saw elements of this with “new math”, Singapore math, and common core math, each label of fairly similar concepts promising to improve kids’ facility with math. Test scores haven’t leapt though.

udit99 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah, you're probably right. I agree that the problem might be shifting focus every year but the one difference with your math examples is that Singapore Math/Common Core math etc. all seem like different systems that don't build on top of each other. You (I'm assuming here) can't focus on Singapore Math one year, then the next year to add Common Core math on top of that etc. Its one or the other.

Spaced repetition on the other hand is a cross-disciplinary technique that just needs to be introduced and kept there. There's nothing else out there to substitute it with. If the young staff hype it up one year and then it becomes part of the curriculum and then they move on to other fancy edtech things, then there's nothing wrong with it.

rolandog 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I partially agree with what you just posted, but — walking along your train of thought, I take a bit of issue with the following paragraph (sliced for emphasis):

> So there seems to be a bit of a trend for people to build flashcard-type tools at the moment, [...] so it's impossible to build a stable business in this space.

I am of the radical idea that lots of things should not be for-profit businesses (doesn't mean that it can't be profitable — just not exorbitantly so), and that economist's mistaken goal of exponential growth expectations is criminally separated from the sigmoid limits to reality.

So, therefore, while I agree that EdTech is a bunch of fads, I think the fact that EdTech is a thing is wrong.

And I agree with your main point that we should be chasing accumulation and refinement of knowledge, and not doing some sort of spring-cleaning every 10 years.

bombcar 5 hours ago | parent [-]

"EdTech" is ripe for disruption - by a non-profit, open-source entity that provides "school stuff as a service" but is basically a lifestyle business.

It would have to be funded by adventure capitalists (e.g., retired techies having fun building stuff) for awhile, but it could easily take over once it got traction.

fidotron 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> If you want to sell software to schools, go and work in a bunch of them, find some obscure administrative problem, and solve that.

I think this principle generalizes to: If you want to sell software to X, go and work in a bunch of X, find some obscure administrative problem, and solve that.

Although some people seemingly have a talent for selling products into industries they have no idea about. I always assume that means a highly motivated buyer.

FinnLobsien an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

There's also a different angle: EdTech doesn't have to sell to schools, but could also be learner-facing.