Remix.run Logo
ehnto 16 hours ago

I have long lamented the over use of combat in games, not for pacifist ideology, it's just a cop-out as a game mechanic for a lot of games. The medium can represent a chasm of possibilities but usually all the focus goes of AAA titles goes into combat.

Which is to say the indie game and cozy game niches respectively have a lot of scope, because their possible gameplay is "everything that isn't combat", and I welcome the variety and creativity.

seventhtiger 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I've thought about this a lot as a game designer.

My first answer is that one of the most amazing mechanics ever designed is health points, I believe invented by Dungeons and Dragons. Almost every non-health win condition feels more arbitrary than health. Whether it's shooting balls in hoops, crossing a finish line first, or collecting victory points they are all less intuitive and feel more contrived than "you have this many points, at 0 you die."

The second is that many game designs are essentially about conflict, whether with other players or game agents. The ultimate conflict is life or death violence, aka combat. So it's a quicky and easy way to raise the metaphorical stakes. If you take an olympic fencing game and instead make them use real swords and no armor then it's a lot more dramatic with no change in the game mechanics.

Making non-violent games is not undesirable, it's just harder to do well when combat fits so naturally. You end with non-violent games being worse on average, non-dramatic low stakes metaphors and contrived win conditions.

lurk2 8 hours ago | parent [-]

I touched on this in my own reply to the grandparent comment [0]. I realized a while ago that lots of competitive games I played regularly were making me feel animosity towards the people I was playing them with, and it led me to think about this issue for quite a while.

Competition is such a default in game design that a game not based on it often isn’t recognized as a game at all. There are cooperative games, but aside from Minecraft, none of them are particularly popular. It’s arguable that this a reflection of the human condition; living things are always fighting for resources, so games attempt to emulate this competition.

It’s odd that this ended up being the paradigm, though; digital worlds can provide us with a space to explore what we would conventionally consider to be impossible - infinite worlds which obviate the need for competition in the first place. There’s maybe a commentary on human nature to be made that even in a game like Minecraft, so many players’ first inclination is to start fighting each other.

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43736674

lurk2 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> pacifist ideology

One of the things I like about Minecraft is that it isn’t structurally adversarial. Most conventional multiplayer games are fundamentally about outperforming another player.

Even when a game is not explicitly violent, I think there is a compelling argument to be made that it continues to shape the player’s perspective as to how the world is and ought to be. Mario Kart is no different from Call of Duty in this regard; both share triumph over others as their win state, whereas Minecraft offers at least the possibility of a (practically) infinite world that is purely cooperative.

I often like to think that the afterlife is something like a big Minecraft server, where our wills have been perfected such that the idea of competitive strife never even crosses one’s mind, and all there is to do is expand into a horizon of possibility. Naturally this makes me very unpopular at LAN parties.

randomstate 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think you'd greatly enjoy Undertale, it's a great 4-5h game exploring the combat/pacifist side of RPGs.

Matumio 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Agree, Undertale is absolutely brilliant in that aspect. Especially the beginning (the part that is in the demo version). The mood changes after that, for the worse I thought. Things got a bit more silly/naive than I like. The ending is absolutely brilliant again, tough, in the same way (it is a reflection on game mechanics). It is not 4h because you'll want to retry some parts.

moomin 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It horribly breaks the stories of many games. The obvious modern example is Last of Us 2 where sparing a single life seems pretty meaningless given the mass murder spree you’ve been on to get there.

tmtvl 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You do know that sports games exist, right? Football, rugger, snowboarding, skateboarding, rally, street racing, circuit racing,...

TiredOfLife 16 hours ago | parent [-]

That's just combat but with stronger rules

randoomed 5 hours ago | parent [-]

If we want to go that route, any conflict would be a kind of combat.

As a conflict has multiple parties trying to reach their own goal which doesn't completely overlap with the others.

i think this would rule out nearly all games (including most non violent ones)

jrowen 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm intrigued by the notion of a chasm of possibilities. Can you explain further?

jackstraw14 15 hours ago | parent [-]

that caught me too, and now I can't stop trying to imagine what it might be.

XorNot 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'd say Death Stranding was a AAA effort at a game which didn't have combat at its core (though it did still have combat).

The systems of that game were very impressive in terms of using game systems to support themselves.

cyberpunk 14 hours ago | parent [-]

I may have to revisit it. It was pretty zen unless it rains but I got a bit bored of the Norman reedus walking simulator after a while.

8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]