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huntaub 6 days ago

I think that worrying that a self-hosted file system has a backdoor to exfiltrate data is an odd concern. Security concerns are (obviously) normal, but you should not be exposing these kinds of services to the public internet (or giving them access to the public internet), eliminating the concern that it's giving your data away.

antonvs 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Backdoors in self-hosted systems are one of the major state-level attack vectors, and there are many known examples of this.

The idea that "you should not be exposing these kinds of services to the public internet (or giving them access to the public internet)" is naive. Aside from the fact that this requires every user to show that level of diligence - a completely unrealistic expectation - if a system is backdoored, it can also have means of exfiltrating data beyond just sending it out on the public internet.

And then there's the obvious point that if you suspect a device is compromised, it's completely irresponsible to use it anyway and assume that you're going to be able to prevent unauthorized access.

As some examples, there are documented concerns about Huawei/ZTE routers, which have been banned in Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Taiwan and the US for that reason. Unauthorized third-party code was found in Juniper Networks firewalls. Fortinet had hardcoded admin credentials in its firewalls and VPNs - probably a self-inflicted mistake, but still useful to attackers. Similarly, Western Digital NAS devices had a hardcoded backdoor account. D-Link routers had such a backdoor in their device web interface. There are many more examples like this.

Snowden revealed some of the US government activities in this area. The US, Russia, China, North Korea and other countries have all been involved in attacks involving BIOS/UEFI firmware, router firmware, NAS, and manufacturing supply chains. Covert exfiltration has been involved in many of these cases, using techniques other than transmitting over the internet.

And of course there was the recent (reported late 2024 Salt Typhoon attack by China on US and other Western telecom networks, which relied on these kinds of techniques, and gained access to large amounts of data, including audio and text of targeted people.

xpe 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I think that worrying that a self-hosted file system has a backdoor to exfiltrate data is an odd concern.

Great security teams get paid to "worry", by which I mean "make a plan" for a given attack tree.

Your use of "odd" looks like a rhetorical technique to downplay legitimate security considerations. From my point of view, you are casually waving away an essential area of security. See:

https://www.paloaltonetworks.com/cyberpedia/data-exfiltratio...

> but you should not be exposing these kinds of services to the public internet (or giving them access to the public internet), eliminating the concern that it's giving your data away.

Let's evaluate the following claim: "a "properly" isolated system would, in theory, have no risk of data exfiltration. Now we have to define what we mean. Isolated from the network? Running in a sandbox? What happens when that system can interact with a compromised system? What happens when people mess up?

From a security POV, any software could have some component that is malicious, compromised, or backdoored. It might be in the project itself or in the supply chain. And so on.

Defense in depth matters. None of the above concerns are "odd". A good security team is going to factor these in.

P.S. If you mean "low probability" then just say that.

xmprt 5 days ago | parent [-]

I agree with the parent commenter. I think it's fair to be concerned with backdoors but this is a distributed file system which can be completely isolated from the outside world. If you're so worried, you could run it in an airgapped Faraday cage and do all your training in that environment. Just don't run it on any centrifuges.

I think these kinds of concerns are more valid for storage systems which serve online traffic or have some kind of connection to the outside world.

antonvs 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Attackers, whether state-level, corporate, or criminal, all rely on ignorance like this. It also probably involves denial: you want to believe your systems are safe, so you delude yourself into thinking that minimal protections are sufficient.

I wrote a longer comment about this here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43745423

xpe 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> If you're so worried, you could run it in an airgapped Faraday cage and do all your training in that environment. Just don't run it on any centrifuges.

Really? More rhetoric that minimizes legitimate security concerns?

Again, if someone wants to make the claim that such concerns are "low probability" that would at least be defensible.

lossolo 5 days ago | parent [-]

In this case, I think the concern about security is overly paranoid. DeepSeek isn't just some unknown nickname of a random developer on GitHub, it's a legitimate company that has made headlines, has a known CEO, publishes research, and is actively trying to attract talent. They've open-sourced a lot of their work, including 3FS, which is fully available on GitHub. So while a backdoor is theoretically possible (just like an asteroid hitting Earth), I think the original poster's question is exaggerated and likely influenced by the fact that the company is Chinese.

xpe 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

> and likely influenced by the fact that the company is Chinese

Let's rephrase this. It is not simply that DeepSeek is a Chinese company. It is because of its links to the CCP [1] [2] and the CCP's cyber operations.

[1]: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3306943/chi...

[2]: https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/online-exclusive/why-deep...

5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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xpe 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

DeepSeek has been caught making backdoors.

https://www.cisecurity.org/insights/blog/deepseek-a-new-play...

xpe 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> DeepSeek isn't just some unknown nickname

> just like an asteroid hitting Earth

So much one-sided rhetoric.

6 days ago | parent | prev [-]
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