| ▲ | internetter 6 days ago |
| Kinda surprised. Google's core business is advertising. Some vertically integrated aux services (like chrome) feel ripe for antitrust, but I wasn't expecting ads themselves. What is Google without ads? |
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| ▲ | tiltowait 6 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| Being a monopoly, in itself, isn’t illegal. The question is whether the company maintains its monopoly through illegal tactics or leverages that monopoly in illegal manners. (NYT really ought to add “illegal” to their title.) |
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| ▲ | dang 6 days ago | parent [-] | | The HTML doc title has that wording, so we've swapped out the article title for that. Thanks! |
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| ▲ | nashashmi 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Google is playing all sides of the dice. They used adsense to enlist publishers. They used adwords to get marketers. They used an ad buying and selling platform to corner the entire ad line. Google bought Doubleclick for $3 Billion. Today it is worth $22 Billion. When Google got into ad-tech, they drifted away from their core market: users. And started to endorse the other side that turned users into products. |
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| ▲ | hnfong 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | IIRC, before Google got into ad-tech, they didn't have a business model. Not sure whether "core market: users" make sense in this context. | | |
| ▲ | nashashmi 6 days ago | parent [-] | | Their business model was search advertising. And they created many product products from that revenue. They tried to monetize the other products which is why they got into ad tech . |
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| ▲ | turtletontine 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | You’ve nailed the first two stages of enshittification in your story there. Stage 1: bring in users with a genuinely good product they like! Stage 2: once users are locked in, prioritize your business customers (in this case, advertisers) and make things continually worse for your users. But stage 3 is just as crucial: once the advertisers are locked in, make things worse for THEM just for your benefit. That’s how google makes such obscene margins on adverting. Publishers and advertisers would love an alternative - but google has done an excellent job of preventing that through unlawful monopolization tactics. Hence thus case, and why it’s so important. |
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| ▲ | bdcravens 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| ("Genius, Billionaire, Playboy, Philanthropist") Everything else. Cloud provider, operating systems, browsers, hosting business apps, phone licenser, Internet provider, smart home manufacturer, and various moonshots. Their ad company is a monopoly because of those other services. Google as an ad company that can't leverage those other lines of business to gain an advantage over other ad companies still has a viable ad business. They can compete on the basis of that lone company's strengths. ("If you're nothing without this suit, then you shouldn't have it") |
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| ▲ | internetter 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Thanks, I like the last quote. But I'm curious... Would it be preferable to have Google owning all of these services you listed—just not the ad company they depend on, or the inverse—all the companies are spun out? I see your point, but also, if Google continued to own all these other things, it would still be a terrifyingly large spread, no? | | |
| ▲ | bdcravens 6 days ago | parent [-] | | Large companies, even monopolies, aren't the problem. Unfair leverage to suppress competition is. Those products without the subsidizing revenue of ads, and ads without the information flows of those products, is the goal. Who gets what part of the company is the wrong question to ask. The org chart would get split along those business units. In all likelihood, the company called "Google" would be the software side, since that's where search lives. | | |
| ▲ | lanstin 6 days ago | parent [-] | | They are a problem in terms of an efficient free market; they make the information flow asymmetrically biased in their favor, and cause higher prices and implicit collusion. That is true even without any intent to harm. | | |
| ▲ | bdcravens 6 days ago | parent [-] | | Sure, but generally speaking that's an orthogonal to the issue of antitrust. The same could be same of many of the typical "big tech" players, or even some of the YC "winners". |
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| ▲ | PaulHoule 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Google can afford to lose money on many of those things because of the ad monopoly. (How much is Android worth in that it keeps Apple out of antitrust trouble with iOS? What quid pro quo does that enable?) |
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| ▲ | ndiddy 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| The original Google research paper by Brin and Page explicitly points out that a search engine financed by advertising is inherently anti-consumer: > Currently, the predominant business model for commercial search engines is advertising. The goals of
the advertising business model do not always correspond to providing quality search to users. For
example, in our prototype search engine one of the top results for cellular phone is "The Effect of
Cellular Phone Use Upon Driver Attention", a study which explains in great detail the distractions and
risk associated with conversing on a cell phone while driving. This search result came up first because
of its high importance as judged by the PageRank algorithm, an approximation of citation importance on
the web [Page, 98]. It is clear that a search engine which was taking money for showing cellular phone
ads would have difficulty justifying the page that our system returned to its paying advertisers. For this
type of reason and historical experience with other media [Bagdikian 83], we expect that advertising
funded search engines will be inherently biased towards the advertisers and away from the needs of the
consumers. > Since it is very difficult even for experts to evaluate search engines, search engine bias is particularly
insidious. A good example was OpenText, which was reported to be selling companies the right to be
listed at the top of the search results for particular queries [Marchiori 97]. This type of bias is much
more insidious than advertising, because it is not clear who "deserves" to be there, and who is willing to
pay money to be listed. This business model resulted in an uproar, and OpenText has ceased to be a
viable search engine. But less blatant bias are likely to be tolerated by the market. For example, a search
engine could add a small factor to search results from "friendly" companies, and subtract a factor from
results from competitors. This type of bias is very difficult to detect but could still have a significant
effect on the market. Furthermore, advertising income often provides an incentive to provide poor
quality search results. For example, we noticed a major search engine would not return a large airline’s
homepage when the airline’s name was given as a query. It so happened that the airline had placed an
expensive ad, linked to the query that was its name. A better search engine would not have required this
ad, and possibly resulted in the loss of the revenue from the airline to the search engine. In general, it
could be argued from the consumer point of view that the better the search engine is, the fewer
advertisements will be needed for the consumer to find what they want. This of course erodes the
advertising supported business model of the existing search engines. However, there will always be
money from advertisers who want a customer to switch products, or have something that is genuinely
new. But we believe the issue of advertising causes enough mixed incentives that it is crucial to have a
competitive search engine that is transparent and in the academic realm. Kind of funny how they basically predicted Google's degradation years in advance. |
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| ▲ | Henchman21 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | They were really smart guys. But smart guys don’t stand a chance in the face of all that money because it attracts people who know how to manipulate and control smart people. Smart people think they’re at the top of the totem pole. But really its those without ethics who sit at the top in our society. This is a conundrum humanity must address if we’re to survive over the long term, IMO. | | |
| ▲ | lanstin 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | A powerful argument against excessively large corporations. When the companies are competing fiercely, the amoral folks can't game the system. | | | |
| ▲ | imiric 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You're implying that smart people are somehow inherently ethical, but were manipulated by unethical (and less smart?) people. Whereas some of the least ethical people in history were also very smart. Intelligence is practically a requirement for truly abhorrent behavior. Greed is humanity's greatest weakness. When faced with the opportunity of unimaginable wealth, most people would sacrifice their ethics and morals, assuming they had any to begin with. | | |
| ▲ | Henchman21 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Well, I can see where you get that from what I wrote. I didn’t mean it quite like that, so allow me to clarify: I don’t think they are inherently ethical, but they were young and naive with good intentions (Do No Evil, and all that). The position they put forward is ethical. But that youthful naivety is what the less-ethical (though still quite intelligent, as you point out) take advantage of. Further, again as you said, greed is at the root of it. Hopefully that clarifies my point? |
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| ▲ | moshegramovsky 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is seriously one of the best things I've ever read here. Extremely well said. | | | |
| ▲ | foobarian 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > This is a conundrum humanity must address if we’re to survive over the long term, IMO. Who's to say that this is not actually an evolutionary adaptation that allows the more ruthlessly led tribes to dominate their enemies? The stat about 1/25 of individuals being sociopaths is very telling | | |
| ▲ | Henchman21 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Each and every one of us has the ability to choose to be better. That so many just “go along with whatever” is why I personally think we’re unlikely to survive over the long term, unless a more enlightened species leads us by the hand. | | |
| ▲ | pyfon 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Can we get to human or better intelligence through evolution without tribal behaviours? |
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| ▲ | moshegramovsky 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Even if you're correct, is that the world you want? (And to be clear, I'm not saying it's the world you want.) DNA isn't destiny. | | |
| ▲ | foobarian 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Right, I don't. It's an interesting conundrum because on an evolutionary scale the civilized era is so short it probably hasn't had an effect yet, which means that getting to a Star Trek style utopia would require a conscious struggle against our nature. | | |
| ▲ | mtlmtlmtlmtl 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Problem with that logic is, humans don't just evolve genetically, we evolve culturally, and that cultural evolution ends up affecting our biology as well. So it doesn't really matter how slow genetic evolution is. Cultural evolution is what defines the human species. It's much more rapid because it includes planning and foresight, unlike the blind watchmaker of biological evolution. It is also lamarckian in that it incorporates the experiences of the previous generation into the cultural phenotype of the next one. That's precisely how we've changed so drastically is an evolutionary blink of an eye. And now, our cultural evolution has reached the point where we're even able to change our own genetics with planning and foresight in a single generation. So it seems to me that the blind watchmaker is essentially irrelevant now. |
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| ▲ | dboreham 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Psychopathopoly. | | |
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| ▲ | hermitShell 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | That’s an awesome point, and honestly I hope lawmakers start to dig into advertising as an industry in general. Hate being exposed to ads and the only alternative is to pay to avoid them. Should be considered predatory and limited in scope somehow. Big Tech can just focus on good products, please. It’s not just preference, it’s and outcome of the final analysis of incentives in society, so S and B could foresee it so many years ago |
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