| ▲ | danielbln 6 days ago |
| That's a very charitable view on vBulletins. Do you not remember threads with 100 pages that are impossible to surface any information from? I would hate a vBulleting as a central hub, it's an information black hole, it's not suitable for tickets (jira), not suitable for real time communication (slack), and so on. It was a product of its time, but I think we found better solutions now. |
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| ▲ | diggan 6 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| > Do you not remember threads with 100 pages that are impossible to surface any information from? As someone who still consumes threads like that, it's part of the charm and beauty. None of the stuff is ranked/upvoted/liked, no one is competing to have the most followers, just conversations/arguments between humans for the sake of communication and understanding. Requires a bit more time and effort to read, true, but everyone being equal makes it feel like a pretty OK tradeoff, at least for me. Of course, not all forums are like that, some still have vanity-metrics, but at least the forums I still participate work like that. |
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| ▲ | cyberlurker 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | There was definitely competition for most post count and some forums had reputation. | | |
| ▲ | dmonitor 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | You basically can't give people numbers or statistics because invariably people will try to make that number as big as possible. | |
| ▲ | diggan 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I don't think I've used any forums that at least publicly surface structured "reputation" although of course informal reputation exists everywhere, including forums. Post count yes, that's pretty common. But if the forum you use is any good, they'd actively combat posts/threads that aren't actually contributing to the conversation. One of the biggest and most active forum in Sweden is actually pretty good at this, probably mostly thanks to its ~100 iron fist moderators who do such a great job with cleaning up posts that aren't contributing to the discussions at hand. That it also have a really extensive set of rules also helps. | | |
| ▲ | g0db1t 5 days ago | parent [-] | | As a certified Swede - Which one is this? | | |
| ▲ | diggan 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Not sure I'd certify you if you're unable to recognize Flashback by description ;) |
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| ▲ | Meekro 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'd forgotten how much I miss this. If you disagree with someone, you have to reply and explain why-- you can't just downvote and move on. | | |
| ▲ | silisili 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I think something threaded similar to Reddit but without voting would be a nice middle ground. My biggest gripe with vBulletin style is how replies to earlier comments work and are so out of order. | | |
| ▲ | caseyy 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | We could score comments with sentiment analysis. AI, though not necessarily LLMs, can do it very well. Depending on how child comments reflect on the parent, the parent could be scored for relevance, agreement, helpfulness, or any other metric. This would also fuzz the metric itself (karma), and make it hard to game. The Goodhart's law problem in social media (karma farming, ratio-ing, etc) could be solved. Of course, that presents many other problems. A corporation using AI to steer what discourse is worthy of promotion and what isn't in social networks has already caused much harm. Many things can be said about it. But as a thought experiment, I think it's an interesting one. Much good could be done, advertisers and financial interests permitting. | |
| ▲ | stavros 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I agree, these days I hate using forums that don't have a tree view. Unfortunately, I don't know of any software like that, except reddit. |
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| ▲ | epolanski 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | You're misinterpreting the role of the vote/downvote button I fear. The upvote/downvote should serve the utility of promoting/suppressing relevant/irrelevant content to the discussion. It's a "vote what's relevant", not "vote what you agree on" button. Also, if you disagree with someone you can just move on, you don't have to answer. From HN's guidelines: > Users should vote and comment when they run across something they personally find interesting—not for promotion. From Reddit's Reddiquette: > If you think something contributes to conversation, upvote it. If you think it doesn't contribute to the community it's posted in or is off-topic in a particular community, downvote it. | | |
| ▲ | AuryGlenz 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Sure, but when everyone else uses the upvote/downvote button that way it doesn’t matter how you personally use it. The end result is anything that goes against the hivemind gets suppressed. I’ve had fully scientifically sourced rebukes of things (effectively, straight up facts) get downvoted to oblivion on Reddit. Hundreds or thousands of people didn’t see that their preconceived notions were probably wrong. It’s no wonder politics has become more insular. HN is better than most, thankfully. | | |
| ▲ | diggan 6 days ago | parent [-] | | > HN is better than most, thankfully. Indeed. Sometimes purely factual (but disliked/"too real") comments get like -200 upvotes, with no chance of redemption, even if it's pretty obvious everything is factual and adds to the topic. Sometimes that happens on HN as well, but I've noticed that eventually it'll turn around. So saying something "true + unpopular + knee-jerk-inducing" can trigger a flood of 5-10 downvotes, but it eventually turns around as people seem to upvote heavily downvoted comments more, I guess. | | |
| ▲ | slifin 5 days ago | parent [-] | | With LLMs we are starting to get the technology where comments could be programmatically rated by more interesting scales than upvotes | | |
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| ▲ | p_ing 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Say something minimally negative about macOS in /r/macos. You'll be -1 in no time. I'd like to see someone post the link of retail macOS 15 is not UNIX, only a bastardized version of macOS 15 configured in-house at Apple passed UNIX 03 cert. Thread would probably die on the vine given the number of users in that subreddit who reference "it's UNIX"! Reddit has entirely turned into a downvote == disagree/opinion I don't like. | | |
| ▲ | l72 4 days ago | parent [-] | | I always thought slashdot had an interesting concept with meta moderators. Their job was to look at how someone moderated a comment and verify if it was moderated correctly. If it was that moderator was giving more moderation points (how many times they could up/down vote something). If it wasn’t they lost points. You would be randomly asked to meta moderate random moderations. |
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| ▲ | epolanski 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > That's a very charitable view on vBulletins. Do you not remember threads with 100 pages that are impossible to surface any information from? There's rarely reasons for that. Example on MBWorld: https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w212-109/ Example from HWUpgrade (italian hardware forum): https://www.hwupgrade.it/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=13 I regularly read many forums to date and they are a great fit for long running discussions. They are less confusing than slack/jira but easier to consume than email threads. > it's not suitable for tickets (jira) You can literally open a thread per ticket, same way you would open an issue on GH. With good organization and barely any moderation you can go far. I swear 20+ years ago we organized 80+ people World of Warcraft guilds all through forums (progress, economy, race-specific discussions, meetings, politics, website development, extensions, etc) and nobody ever felt like "yeah, it would've been better with a reddit/hn-style board or in a chat". Ever. Yet today I'm split across 4 inefficient communication channels, plus another two/three different softwares for issues like GH/GitLab, documentation (confluence) involving half a dozen people lol. |
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| ▲ | danielbln 6 days ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, because 20 years ago we didn't know anything else. I also remember coordinating a guild via a vBulletin, and it was... fine. Would I do that today? Definitely not. |
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| ▲ | wsatb 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Have we? I think vBulletin has mostly been replaced with Twitter and Reddit, which are often very difficult to surface information from. I think the major advantage of old forums is the community. You don’t really get the sense of community on a large network, which causes a host of other problems. |
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| ▲ | numpad0 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Was it seriously the only way to read vBulletin forums? I could just fetch each whole >>1-1000 on old 2ch.net forum topics[1] and Ctrl+F anything I wanted. List of topics were Ctrl+F friendly too. There were party apps that could search all forums with titles, and fetch updates for all topics. vBulletin seemed nothing like that to me, was that really not me being outsider but just how it was? 1: https://web.archive.org/web/20170728043031/https://egg.2ch.net/test/read.cgi/jisaku/1478413388/
2: https://web.archive.org/web/20170715143439/http://egg.2ch.net/jisaku/subback.html
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| ▲ | SecretDreams 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's at least suitable as an archive. Tickets just end up being a place where information and lessons die once the problem is closed out. Sometimes impossible to find an old ticket without considerable searching. |
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| ▲ | olyjohn 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I mean, have you tried to search a Facebook group, or any of the modern social media? There's not even any way to organize things, except for maybe some sticky posts. Forums were broken up into all sorts of sub-topics, and you could search them by actual keywords, and use real filters. These days the search just shows you shit that they want you to engage with, not what's actually relevant. A well moderated and curated forum is extremely easy to find information on without even searching. You're 100% right though, it's not suitable for real time communication. I wouldn't want it to be. Facebook groups have "chats" now, and it's mega impossible to keep up, and nobody actually reads them. |
