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| ▲ | bloomingeek 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Just finished a book about the Hundred Years War, before that, one on the Thirty Years War. Both have a glaring similarity, the "weak people" were consistently plundered, raped and killed by the "strong" people. When will the working class people understand that the elite are just a few bad decisions away from their total destruction? (Here in the US we seem to be on some kind of precipice.) | | |
| ▲ | crooked-v 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Of course, many of those "strong people" were themselves peasants who joined up with mercenary companies to support themselves after their own livelihoods were destroyed by warring armies. | |
| ▲ | Ray20 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Here in the US we seem to be on some kind of precipice. Aren't working class people in the US just recently choose the most anti-elite candidate possible just because (and fuck the consequences, let it all burn in hell)? Working class people are understanding that the elite are just a few bad decisions away from their total destruction. And now they WILL make THE OTHERS to understand this. | | |
| ▲ | astrange 5 days ago | parent [-] | | The people you mentioned aren't working class, they're wealthy but blue-collar, ie petit-bourgeois or local gentry. Though Americans don't have class consciousness anyway, or if they do it's based on style of consuming and not working. |
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| ▲ | jmuguy 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Another way of reading the saying is that the weak men are weak mentally, they're cruel and inept. So maybe outwardly "strong"... but not really. | | |
| ▲ | kybernetikos 5 days ago | parent [-] | | It's a nice reading, and I do think that the ability to take the wider view, to be prepared to suffer and fight for principles rather than immediate personal gain, to band together with others even at personal cost is an enormous strength. I just don't think it's what people using this phrase mean. | | |
| ▲ | Ray20 5 days ago | parent [-] | | >to be prepared to suffer and fight for principles rather than immediate personal gain, to band together with others even at personal cost is an enormous strength. The more I think about it, the more I come to realization that all of this just fairy tales for children. | | |
| ▲ | kybernetikos 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Of course! Fairy tales for children are how we communicate some of our best understandings of what it means to live a good life. Many important things in life are fictions or rely on fictions - money, nations, property, family, art, justice, legitimacy, banks. All of them are fairytales. And like a fairy in Peter Pan, belief can make them real, powerful facts of our world while lack of belief can destroy them. It works too - I know lots of real people who make the world a better place because of the fairy tales they choose to believe. |
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| ▲ | mantas 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Then those men you're calling „weak“ are actually strong... | | |
| ▲ | praptak 6 days ago | parent | next [-] | | "Good times" is a property of the political system as a whole and has little to do with "strength of men" unless you bend backwards to redefine strength. | | |
| ▲ | mantas 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Good times is not a property of political system. It’s overall life property. Including politics and whatnot. Producing a quality political regime needs strong men too. |
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| ▲ | kybernetikos 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Strong together. Strong, when they choose to support each other. Weak otherwise. | | |
| ▲ | mantas 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Ability to band together is a strength. | | |
| ▲ | kybernetikos 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I agree, the ability to lend your strength to benefit others is a moral strength and it's key to human flourishing and achievement. Where I might disagree though is if you think that this is the kind of strength that most users of the phrase in question are thinking of. | | |
| ▲ | mantas 5 days ago | parent [-] | | TBH all the time I saw this phrase was about strong people in the broadest possible way. And always as a positive. It’s very strange to see people defining strong in very narrow bigot way and then trying to spin the whole phrase into a negative. This thread is probably the first time I saw people take such turn. It’s also very strange that people try to portray being weak as a positive. Sure, strong may have very different definitions from different people. Even borderline opposite. But turning the whole word into a negative… that reminds me of 1984. Weaknesses is strength, strength is weakness. | | |
| ▲ | kybernetikos 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Whereas I always take this phrase to be refering to a military kind of strength. For example, this whole article tells us that Oda Ujiharu got the nickname "weakest" because of his military incompetence. Your own examples of strength in this thread tend to be mainly martial too. This kind of strength - the ability to force your will upon others (which is what military strength is, and also the kind of strength that 'Strong Men' dictators have), motivates the (usually incorrect) comparisons to historical empires. There are other kinds of strength - moral strength, resilience, determination, vision, etc they're just not what I think is being talked about with this phrase. I don't know where you get 'weakness' is being described as a positive in this thread. Weakness can also mean many things, but in this context, it means being susceptible to others forcing their will onto you. It's not a good thing, but differences in strength are natural and impossible to avoid. What is a good thing is when the great mass of comparatively 'weak' people realise that together they are stronger than the tyrant. Rather than 1984, for an appropriate comparison I'd go to the Bible:
- "God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong." | | |
| ▲ | mantas 5 days ago | parent [-] | | A lot of „martial“ skills are needed in daily life. Discipline, planning, ability to operate both on your own and in a team both as a leader and a member. Even physical strength does help, even in modern world. A good CEO and good military commander skillset is very very similar. Just like good specialist and good soldier. Whenever I meet this phrase, it's talking about specifically those „other kinds of strength“. I'd even argue that there's no „strength“ in dumbly forcing your will upon others. It's a strength to lead people, to inspire them and get them to follow you. Charisma and leadership is a hell of a strength. But to physically force people... All you need is a number of, possibly weak, people and you'll likely succeed in bending even physically much stronger people. And weak people banding together can build a tyrant regime. Soviet union is probably good example. Both at initial stage when workers kick started it. And in later stages when usually the weak life scum went to work for the security apparatus of said regime. And reading about other regimes, it seems to be a recurring theme that security apparatus is built out of weak miserable people who look for an revenge opportunity. |
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| ▲ | 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | somenameforme 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You don't understand the saying. If you want to find some of the most anti-war people there are, speak to veterans who have lived through such. If you want to find some of the most pro-war people there are, talk to people who have never experienced the consequences of such. Out of curiosity I just looked up 'us warmonger political advisor guy' because his named temporarily escaped me, and search delivered - John Bolton. [1] I wanted to see his history because it's just about always the same - and yeah, good ole Yale grad who was a draft dodger getting his college deferment then immediately getting a national guard position to avoid conscription. For those that may not understand the latter - National Guard units were basically never deployed, extremely difficult to enlist in, and basically worked as a means for the well connected to avoid service. Bush, Cheney, Biden, Trump, Clinton, and all of them - draft dodgers, often using similar tricks. It has nothing to do with political systems. There have been great times under dictatorial systems and horrible times under democracies. It has to do with weak people trying to be strong, which drives chaos. Maybe it could be framed up succinctly in that the "hard decisions" are indeed hard for strong men, but for weak mean they happily make them without the briefest of hesitation, though of course they'll put on a solemn face for the cameras. [1] - https://search.brave.com/search?q=us+warmonger+political+adv... | | |
| ▲ | kybernetikos 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I like your philosophy, but I think this phrase is a horrible way to express it. You should try to come up with a different pithy way of saying what you mean. Perhaps Beware those who make hard decisions easily. Or Hard times come when decision makers pay no part of the cost of their decisions. | |
| ▲ | bee_rider 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It isn’t a good saying, in the sense that what the speaker means by “good times,” “bad times,” “strong men,” and “weak men,” is so open to interpretation as to be meaningless. I like your interpretation. But I think the expression is often interpreted with “strong” implying a certain sort of roughness/propensity toward violence. Anyway, it is clearly not accurate—“good times” and “bad times” must at least be opposite, however we define them, right? But we see all sorts of countries in history that have multi-generational reinforcing stretches of excellency. And we see many countries that suffered from many-generation-long stretches of bad times. These good and bad men don’t seem to pop up anywhere near as reliably as the expression claims. | |
| ▲ | moomin 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | A lovely example of this is Starship Troopers and The Forever War. Both were written by veterans, but only one of them was written by someone who served during wartime. Unsurprisingly, it’s the anti-war one. |
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| ▲ | 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | stormfather 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don't see how anyone can look at the generation that survived the great depression, and look at boomers/millenials/gen Z and not see the truth of it | | |
| ▲ | salomonk_mur 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The generation that survived the great depression, caused the great depression. If they were strong as you imply how could they cause bad times? Dumb phrase. | | | |
| ▲ | badgersnake 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don’t see how anyone can look at the numbers 1 and 2 not see that x + y = 3 is always true. | |
| ▲ | bee_rider 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I agree Boomers have made a real mess of things, but mostly millennials and gen Z seem worn out. I don’t think it’s obvious that we’re going to be the “strong men” predicted by the expression, to create good times. |
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| ▲ | stronglikedan 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > This is such a dumb saying. It can be aptly applied throughout history, so while maybe not the best word choice, the spirit of the message can't be dumb. | | |
| ▲ | tbrake 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I'd say it's actually completely useless. The definitions of "weak" and "strong" are extremely malleable depending on your own subjective assessment of the person/people. It's an almost-aphorism; nearly useful, but not quite. | | |
| ▲ | kybernetikos 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Not only that, but "good times" and "bad times" are equally ambiguous - good times for who? I have a feeling that the saying is used primarily by people who imagine themselves strong and think that the good times in history were when the strong were taking from the weak, whereas I think that good times in history are when the weak are protected from the worst abuses of the strong. | | |
| ▲ | mantas 5 days ago | parent [-] | | When famine hits or you get attacked by another country, it’s not about weak being protected from the strong. It’s about one society getting into trouble. | | |
| ▲ | kybernetikos 5 days ago | parent [-] | | And perhaps this is the core of our disagreement - you see a country being attacked by another and you blame those hard times on the victim while I blame it on the attacker. I say it's a problem of unrestrained strength, of strength misapplied, not a problem of some people being weaker than others. And an enormous number of famines are caused by conflict, or historically by dumb central government by overly strong tyrants. | | |
| ▲ | mantas 5 days ago | parent [-] | | > famines are caused by conflict And conflicts are frequently caused by the victim getting weak. > historically by dumb central government That's what I pointing at. > overly strong tyrants They're not strong. Unless you want to define strong in a very narrow sense which simply dumb. > you see a country being attacked by another and you blame those hard times on the victim while I blame it on the attacker Such is nature. When a sugar lover gets diabetis, you don't blame diabetis. If a society wants to stay afloat, it has to be able to defend from outsiders. |
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| ▲ | salomonk_mur 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Can it? What "bad times" were created by weak men? To me it seems most if not all bad times are just "strong men" taking advantage of that strength to take from others in one way or another and hence causing conflict or economic woes. | | | |
| ▲ | bee_rider 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is not true, we see plenty of long stretches of misery and success in various countries throughout history. It isn’t particularly cyclical, instead we see strengths sometimes reinforcing, sometimes collapsing, and often just regressing to the mean. | |
| ▲ | 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | philipallstar 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | You're missing the point. The strong men are the ones building roads and sewers and buildings and exploring and policing and making safe and guarding and inventing and transporting, and the weak men are the ones deferring and allowing things to slide into safety and overly generous (with someone's money) social programs and overseas programs and politeness laws, and when things go wrong, populism, and the circle continuing. | | |
| ▲ | kybernetikos 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I'm really struggling to match your definitions of weak and strong here to anything like normal usage. I think you're saying that it's strong to be employed? I'm not really sure how that matches up to being against the things you mention in connection with "weak". Incidentally, I don't know if you intended this, but building roads and sewers and policing are, in most countries, socially funded programs. | | |
| ▲ | Kon5ole 5 days ago | parent [-] | | It's a metaphor, "strong" and "weak" refers to the ability to overcome the "hard times", whatever that may be. Basically if you experienced the direct consequences of a "hard time" (a demagogue, a famine, a recession or financial crisis, SCRUM, or whatever) you will be more aware and resilient to allowing the things that caused that to happen than if you never experienced it. That's "strength". It is of course true, we see it everywhere in nature, but it's perhaps often more due to hard times eliminating weakness than actually creating strength. Good times tend to increase the number of people who don't know how serious bad times can get, don't realize the importance of principles that were obvious to the people who survived the bad times. So "strong people" can perhaps be "created" equally in good times as well, but they are increasingly outnumbered. During hard times the "weak" are eliminated. This being Ycombinator one can consider the example of how any crazy idea gets funding during good times but during hard times the ideas that actually have legs remain. ;-) | | |
| ▲ | astrange 5 days ago | parent [-] | | > This being Ycombinator one can consider the example of how any crazy idea gets funding during good times but during hard times the ideas that actually have legs remain. ;-) Remember economics isn't a morality play where bad things are secretly good. The general principle is that a bad economy only has bad results and there's no reason to want one. https://eml.berkeley.edu/~enakamura/papers/plucking.pdf | | |
| ▲ | Kon5ole 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Bad times are named "bad" for a reason of course, but there are many sayings - sayings being based on human observations throughout history - along the lines of "every cloud has a silver lining". One that conceptually rhymes with the "bad times lead to good people" saying is "bad manners lead to good laws". |
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