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Is it possible the danger you think we’re in isn’t real? And are you open to that?

I’m not really what you’d call “on the right” but my left-leaning friends seem convinced democracy is teetering and to me that seems to be mostly just propaganda.

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pron 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

It is not propaganda that POTUS is blackmailing law firms that represent his opponents and universities he doesn't like, and "suggesting" a revocation of broadcast licenses due to unfavorable coverage.

It is not propaganda that he has signed executive orders directing the DOJ to investigate individuals who have made statements he doesn't like but were never suspected of any crime.

It is not propaganda that America is now illegally (according to court rulings) renditioning people from the US to incarceration facilities in another country with no conviction, no charges, and no sentence -- indeed, no due process at all -- and illegally (according to court rulings) circumventing habeas corpus, a principle of proto-democracy since the 12th century.

It is not propaganda that the administration is willfully ignoring rulings by SCOTUS.

These are the basic facts. It is also a fact that these, or similar, things have not happened in US history outside of some extreme events such as the Civil War or world wars.

Whether or not you integrate these extreme and highly unusual actions that go against basic tenets of democracy and reach a conclusion of "danger" or not is up to you, but if anyone does reach such a conclusion, it would clearly not be "just propaganda" or even "mostly just propaganda".

	▲	alabastervlog 5 days ago \| parent [-]
		The first term was a wild shift in norms. Dozens of incidents that would have been a huge scandals normally, just faded into the background noise and nothing came of them. One stand-out feature of the first term was a total disregard for conflict of interest. No real attempt to distance himself from his investments and businesses, multiple actions that sure looked like enriching himself at the public expense, multiple family members given roles in the administration. All of these would have been huge scandals and maybe even drawn impeachment and a conviction, not that long ago.

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tclancy 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This feels like begging the question. But, in the interests of the topic, how should I see things when one branch of government is not only openly, but gleefully ignoring the will of a coequal branch while the third branch looks on in impotent compliance?

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mattmaroon 5 days ago | parent [-]

As a thing that happens, has happened many times, will happen many more times, and while possibly awful is not a sign that we’re about to become a fascist dictatorship?

It’s all a matter of framing and I was asking the parent if they’re open to an alternate frame because if not, they’re a toddler too and I don’t think they recognize it. The comments I got in reply were pretty solid evidence that it’s toddlers all the way down.

	▲	tclancy 3 days ago \| parent [-]
		https://frinkiac.com/caption/S05E20/290489

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crooked-v 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A legal resident of the US has already been illegally shipped to a foreign prison, with the Trump administration claiming it's impossible to get him back. Will it count as "danger" for you once the first US citizen gets the same treatment?

	▲	alabastervlog 5 days ago \| parent \| next [-]
		Illegally firing the IGs added after Nixon's shenanigans to make sure the executive isn't just wildly doing crime constantly under a veil of secrecy, right at the start of his term, was... you know, also a bad sign.
	▲	mattmaroon 4 days ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		Various levels of our government under the last president prosecuted a former president for “crimes” they would not have prosecuted him for if he had not been a politician. While I despise Trump, that was lawfare, and far worse than deporting a non-citizen (though that is troubling). So where’s the danger again? Were you worried then? It’s all framing. You’re being primed by biased media to see everything Trump does as a hostile takeover and while I don’t agree with many of those things, if you keep an open mind and try to talk to intelligent Trump fans (which does require a fair amount of filtering, but they do exist) you can see the alternate frame. And that’s sort of what this original article is about, right? That was my point, the comment to which I was responding was a “toddler” getting frustrated by other people being toddlers. It’s toddlers all the way down. The first thing you should do, when you encounter a toddler, is to be really careful to ask whether you too are one. We all are most of the time and with loads of self-examination, we can occasionally overcome it.

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whatshisface 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Whether it's teetering depends on how strong it is, but here are a few of the most unequivocal reasons why we know it's under attack, and that the defenses are weakened:

- A conspiracy to refuse to leave the white house went unpunished at the highest levels of government.

- Congress is refusing to cancel declarations of emergency that grant the executive special powers with enormous impact.

- Habeas corpus has been violated many times and the judicial branch has been limited to ineffectively "ordering" it to stop in one case.

There are many others, but the ones that are overtly political tend to be "invisible" to people who agree deeply enough. For example, Chinese-style social media scanning for visa holders seems to only bother people who do not see the US as being in a state of war related to what their social media is being scanned for.

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alabastervlog 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's... the news, for the last decade or so.

2016 was when Trump suggested that his supporters could shoot Hillary if he lost, and that didn't immediately end his candidacy. That was a shocking development. It's been downhill since.

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LPisGood 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Do you know about the president banning the federal government from working with people represented by specific law firms he doesn’t like? Are you aware he has been revoking clearances of all lawyers working at law firms that have brought suit against him and/or his government?

These blatantly corrupt abuses of power against officers of the court are not propaganda.

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const_cast 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> seem convinced democracy is teetering and to me that seems to be mostly just propaganda.

Dude, the last time Trump lost he tried to overthrow the government. Are we just supposed to... pretend that didn't happen and he's just some bastion of American democracy?

The stage for this has been set for a while now, and if you haven't noticed, Trump isn't backing down on ANY of his beliefs. He's doubling down. What other conclusion could you draw then?

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mattmaroon 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Your question is rhetorical so I won’t answer it directly, but I am sure even you agree that like half the country has drawn different conclusions. So it is at least least possible, right?

If a lot of people have drawn a vastly different conclusion from the same set of facts as you, and you can’t fathom what that may be, that’s the strongest possible sign that you may be a toddler in this particular instance.

	▲	const_cast 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		> but I am sure even you agree that like half the country has drawn different conclusions. So it is at least least possible, right? No, it's not, because we're not living in 1984. What is possible isn't determined by what people believe. No, actually, I cannot claim I am a butterfly and then fly out of this room, even if everyone in the room sees it. > that’s the strongest possible sign that you may be a toddler in this particular instance. Me, worried about the value of democracy, am a "toddler". Even on hacker news, the enticement of propaganda cannot escape you. You MUST defend the fascism, like a robot. What an idiot I am, for standing by the constitution, by American morals. How foolish of me for demanding we be skeptical of our all-knowing all-powerful king. Rise ye, and lay down your hands! Your lord Trump approaches, and we must kiss his feet. Facts matter not. Reality matters not. Courts matter not. Law matters not. We not only live in delusion, we revel in it. We are proud to be insane. We are grateful to be so smart as to denounce reality. And we, alone, can see the True Nature of the world.

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mattmaroon 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

PS, if you want to know the other conclusions, load Fox News or any right-aligned media. It's useful (if occasionally infuriating) to see what the other side thinks.