Remix.run Logo
wat10000 3 days ago

In a free country, private employers should be allowed to choose who they employ, with very narrow exceptions for discrimination based on race, religion, etc.

In a free country, citizens should be allowed to read what other citizens write in public.

Those both seem pretty obvious, but put the two of them together and it means people can lose their jobs or not be hired for stuff they tweet. How do you resolve that?

IMO the real issue isn’t that employers can make decisions based on this stuff. It’s that employers are far too big. If we had 20 Amazons, getting fired from one of them wouldn’t be such a big deal.

cduzz 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

I think you're missing the basic distinction between private parties and government.

Private parties (including companies) largely have freedom of association. There are (theoretically) protections in "commerce" against a company discriminating against a person or group based on "innate" factors (such as skin color or gender).

But largely, people and companies have a wide degree of latitude about what they are and are not allowed to do.

The government, on the other hand, (theoretically) is largely not allowed to stop people from saying things or associating with each other, and when these prohibitions are in effect they're subject to both documentation and review. This is "theory" because the government has done lots of shady things.

The government, similarly (and theoretically), is bound by a variety of procedural constraints, such as due process, right to see an attorney, right of the attorney to request your presence, right to a trial, etc.

There's a categorical distinction between:

I, a private party, am offended that I face consequences of offending someone else when I would prefer not to face any consequences.

and

I, a private party, am abducted by the organization in this country with a monopoly on violence and which interprets all laws, and I vanish with no recourse from anyone.

wat10000 2 days ago | parent [-]

I don't understand where you think I've missed that distinction.

freedomben 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I mostly agree with you.

> Those both seem pretty obvious, but put the two of them together and it means people can lose their jobs or not be hired for stuff they tweet. How do you resolve that?

If the employer happened to see it, then yes I think that's well within rights. But I think having some random stranger see something and actively campaign against the employee to their employer is a little bit different. It's not illegal, nor should it be, but there are plenty of things that are legal but still not good behavior. I would consider this under that umbrella.

wat10000 2 days ago | parent [-]

OK, it's bad behavior. Now what? That means nothing.

stale2002 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Harassment can be punished by the law. So that is the "now what".

No, freedom of speech doesn't mean that you can engage in serious harassment of people, their workplace, or their children or family.

wat10000 2 days ago | parent [-]

The scenario being discussed is employers looking at employees’ public statements, or third parties telling employers about those public statements. I don’t think that’s anything close to harassment.

stale2002 2 days ago | parent [-]

No actually. It is never just that.

The question was about "to get a social media frenzy going".

And this is never just an employer randomly looking at a tweet, for which they are almost never going to do anything about it. Most employers don't care.

Instead, the much more likely scenario is mass points of harassment, stalking, and death threats targeted at people's friends and family, when such a "social media frenzy" happens.

You cannot ignore the actual mostly likely result of your advocacy. And when you just say that this is all "free speech" you are doing disservice to the massive amount of illegal harassment that these internet mobs cause.

You do not control the mob, yet you are response for its harm anyway if you try to start one.

immibis 2 days ago | parent [-]

The topic was someone telling your employer about something bad that you did.

stale2002 11 hours ago | parent [-]

All of this stuff goes hand in hand. If you are getting a "social media frenzy going", to get someone fired, you are also response for when that social media targets someone's friends and family with stalking, harassment, and death threats.

You cannot pick and chose the consequences of your social media frenzy. It all happens at once, and you don't control the mob. And you are at fault for all of the consequences of that hate mob.

freedomben 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Should we encourage bad behavior? I tend to think not. Agreeing it is bad behavior is a critical step! Now we can start discouraging it

nradov 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Why should we make an exception based on religion but not on political viewpoint? That is logically inconsistent. There's nothing special about religion.

wat10000 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

The historical answer is because Congress wanted to be sure that employers could fire Communists for being Communists.

Of course, that's not my view. I think political affiliation should probably be protected, but it needs to be very narrow. You shouldn't be able to be fired for being a Republican. But if you post "Gay people should be executed," you shouldn't be able to hide behind "I'm a Republican, that's a political view!" any more than you should be able to hide behind "I'm a Christian, that's a religious view!"

Ray20 2 days ago | parent [-]

But if it is political/religious view? I don't quite understand how we can draw a line here. In general, belonging to a religion or political movement literally means that the subject has a set of certain explicitly stated views.

immibis 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

There is, however, something special about political viewpoint.