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So given you didn't address any other part of the reply am i to assume you agree ?

Future consequences and poor outcomes based on current day incompetence and mismanagement ?

To address your reply:

If you don't know the phrase "there is no ethical consumption" then looking it up might be interesting reading for you, it's a large part of the plot from the last half of "the good place", if that helps at all.

Anyway ,it's the same idea but taken to it's logical conclusion, everything everyone does is causing harm in some way somewhere down the chain and therefore it's impossible to do anything without some harm being caused.

If that's your point then i agree, but specifically here i was pointing out the direct point to point link between removing monetary aid and the deaths of people relying upon that aid.

You asked for costs on money and lives, and while i think billions and millions were hyperbole there are still directly attributable deaths, even now.

The key part here is the "directly"

The difference between "physically taking away someones food until they starve to death" vs "participating in a societal structure that routinely lets people starve to death" one is direct taking an action to achieve an outcome, the other is not.

I think those numbers will grow significantly larger in relatively short order, i think it's naive to think DOGE is running on any platform of competence but it's entirely possible i'm wrong.

However, there's not a lot of evidence i am wrong,

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anonym29 14 days ago | parent [-]

There are two points I'd like to address here.

>So given you didn't address any other part of the reply am i to assume you agree ? Future consequences and poor outcomes based on current day incompetence and mismanagement ?

With your post I was replying to? I do agree with large parts of it. I think Elon Musk brought a "move fast and break things" approach to the Federal government, which has traditionally not been a place where that approach is welcome, and the "break things" part certainly carries a different level of impact when the thing being broken is the single income source of many people who either neglected to adequately financially prepare themselves for retirement, were unable to avoid unexpected financial difficulties in life, or otherwise wound up in a situation where they were left otherwise destitute in old age (e.g. romance scammers stole their entire private retirement balance). That said, to answer the core question being asked: "does removing systems actively (and provably) preventing deaths count [as killing people]?", I don't necessary think so as a rule of thumb. I see a fundamental difference between initiating an act of violence designed to deprive someone else of their life or safety, and overly hasty bureaucratic maneuvering to attempt to streamline efficiency, however reckless the latter may be carried out. This doesn't necessarily mean I condone the approach DOGE is taking, either.

>To address your reply: You asked for costs on money and lives, and while i think billions and millions were hyperbole there are still directly attributable deaths, even now.

I am sorry if I phrased my question poorly, I was not attempting to ask whether this could or would cost hundreds of billions of dollars and/or millions of lives, but rather whether it has cost billions of dollars and/or millions of lives, as the original post made by ZeroGravitas seemed to imply, from the way I read it.

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NilMostChill 14 days ago | parent [-]

Ah, that makes sense.

As i alluded to in my post i don't think it has hit the hyperbolic numbers provided in the original post.

I suspect they will be hit in the short-ish term 1-3 years, but these kinds of things are notoriously difficult to calculate, especially when the actual data around it will almost certainly be purposefully obfuscated.

As you said though ,that wasn't what you were asking.

"Move fast and break things" is a concept referring to not worrying too much about breaking existing solutions or integrations while *improving* them.

Declaring a laughably unrealistic timescale to replace a system millions of people rely upon to survive isn't innovative or groundbreaking, it's reckless and dangerous, bordering on callous.

There could genuinely be an argument made that he's so narcissistic and delusional that he genuinely doesn't realise how badly this is going to pan out, in which case the intent might not be malicious but accidentally killing tens/hundreds of thousands of people because you don't think things through isn't a good enough excuse for me personally.

But then you get statements like "empathy is a weakness" that point to him at least partially understanding what's going to happen and just not caring.

i'd like to address a specific reference in your reply:

> neglected to adequately financially prepare themselves for retirement, were unable to avoid unexpected financial difficulties in life

To me that shows a fundamental misunderstanding of just how difficult modern financial stability is to achieve for a large proportion of the population.

Living paycheque to paycheque can sometimes be neglect yes, but i'd wager that far more instances of that are due to the increasing gap between cost of living and actual wages.

It's difficult to plan for retirement when you work a 60 hour week and are only just covering rent and food.

It also doesn't address the fact that social security is funded by taxes, it's not a handout, people make financial decisions based on the information they have, the information they had was "pay your taxes and when it comes time to stop working you'll get some assistance".

If you want to kill it, fine, stop taxing people to pay in to it, removing it after an entire lifetime of paying in to the system is basically theft.

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anonym29 14 days ago | parent [-]

>To me that shows a fundamental misunderstanding of just how difficult modern financial stability is to achieve for a large proportion of the population. Living paycheque to paycheque can sometimes be neglect yes, but i'd wager that far more instances of that are due to the increasing gap between cost of living and actual wages. It's difficult to plan for retirement when you work a 60 hour week and are only just covering rent and food.

I try to take a very humble approach in evaluating what I'm entitled to. I don't believe that I'm automatically entitled to a large enough income to build long-term prosperity just because I am working 60 hours a week. At the end of the day, if I spend 60 hours digging ditches to lay fiber that is mostly used for Netflix, Youtube, and adult video content, I have delivered less value to society than if I spent 60 hours developing a new pharmaceutical drug that saved a hundred thousand lives, haven't I? It's certainly not fair, but life does not drop all of us into the adult world with an equal upbringing, an equal education, or the equal training necessary for us all to produce the same amount of value. If I want to achieve a higher income, I see that as fundamentally a "me" problem, not a problem with other people - it means I have a duty to go above and beyond, to work harder, to study longer, to research which skills have higher demand in society, to educate and train myself, and to strive for the goals that I want to achieve, because I don't believed I'm really "owed" much besides the right to life, liberty, private property, and the pursuit of happiness, which is not the same thing as a right to happiness itself, I might add. This also means I don't think I'm entitled to wage increases that match the rate of inflation. If I want to extract more value from employment, I have a duty to make myself more valuable.

I don't necessarily think everyone is capable of becoming a multi-millionaire, but I do think (almost) everyone is capable of working harder, studying more, watching less TV, buying less "wants" rather than just "needs" (recall that the most prolific purchasers of lottery tickets are the bottom two quintiles), of saving up money diligently, of being more frugal than we are, etc. Obvious exceptions apply to people with profound mental or physical disabilities, of course, but most of us are not quadriplegics or suffering from severe schizophrenia - and even those kinds of barriers haven't prevented people like Stephen Hawking or Terry Davis from going on to produce profound and noteworthy outputs. Obviously that's not the bar for people suffering from such disabilities, but I think most people are capable of much more than we give them credit for.

>It also doesn't address the fact that social security is funded by taxes, it's not a handout, people make financial decisions based on the information they have, the information they had was "pay your taxes and when it comes time to stop working you'll get some assistance". If you want to kill it, fine, stop taxing people to pay in to it, removing it after an entire lifetime of paying in to the system is basically theft.

I agree that this is a problem, and simply stripping people of benefits they spent a lifetime paying into is as fundamentally unfair as forcing them to pay into a program with no choice to opt out was. The solution needs to be compassionate, and it logically follows to me that the people calling for radical reform should be the first to offer self-sacrifice to be part of the solution. I'm a big proponent of allowing everyone to have the option to permanently opt out of receiving benefits for life from these programs, in exchange for a small tax credit or deduction to offset the FICA taxes they will continue to pay in to help fund benefits for the current or near-current retirees. I'd be the first to volunteer for such a program.

	▲	NilMostChill 14 days ago \| parent [-]
		I think that rather than a fundamental misunderstanding this is more of a fundamentally different outlook between us. I understand the draw of seeing 'value' as a metric by which to judge things but i don't generally take that approach myself. I find that what constitutes 'value' is too nebulous a concept on which to place foundations. That isn't to say it isn't useful and that i don't use it, just that it's less of a core belief than it is a useful tool in some contexts. To take your example of netflix, youtube and adult content, some may see that kind of entertainment as a valuable contribution to modern society and thus by being the facilitator you are contributing to society as a whole. Youtube especially is the vehicle for a lot of information dissemination (both good and bad, for whatever metric you use for such things). Spending that time making a pharmaceutical drug that then gets bought and shelved because it undercuts profit margins on an existing product because of corporate greed means you'd have essentially contributed to profit margins rather than society as a whole. Or just absorbed my the private medical complex as a whole. See : Insulin And i wasn't implying people were owed anything for just existing, i specifically implied they were owed the service that they had paid in to for their whole lives. Whether or not you are entitled to wage increases in line with inflation isn't the point i was making (the economics behind it are fascinating though), i was saying that the idea that people being negligent as a major contribution to lack of retirements funds is a faulty premise in a lot of cases, because it isn't that they could have and chose not to , it's that they never had the opportunity. > I don't believed I'm really "owed" much besides the right to life, liberty, private property, and the pursuit of happiness, I agree with the not owed much sentiment but i can't see how you resolve that with "except these somewhat substantial concepts", especially when you throw "private property" in there. Working from a baseline you aren't owed anything means you aren't owed those things, you go back to pre-civilisation times, you get what you earn and keep what you can defend. As soon as you start introducing societal concepts such as the right to liberty or private property then you introduce the idea of societal expectations and obligations, from all included parties, including governing bodies. Even societies with small tribal numbers had the idea of looking after the elderly to a degree. > I try to take a very humble approach in evaluating what I'm entitled to and it seems a very privileged view of how modern society currently 'works'. A lot of the things you have said are applicable to a specific subset of the population, namely lower-middle to upper-middle class ( the traditional class system is a shitty metric but people know it so... ) . They don't work for anybody near the poverty line and don't apply to people who are already wealthy. > I don't necessarily think everyone is capable of becoming a multi-millionaire, Agreed > but I do think (almost) everyone is capable of working harder, studying more, watching less TV, buying less "wants" rather than just "needs" Look up the actual poverty line statistics to see what kind of numbers you are looking at for who can afford "needs". > (recall that the most prolific purchasers of lottery tickets are the bottom two quintiles) There is a reason for that and a reason why it's sometimes considered a "poverty tax". With no good options for upward mobility the idea of a very low chance at changing your life is much more appealing. People with money don't need to win the lottery, so why would they buy lottery tickets? > of saving up money diligently, of being more frugal than we are Partially agreed, see my response about actual poverty statistics. > Obvious exceptions apply to people with profound mental or physical disabilities, of course, but most of us are not quadriplegics or suffering from severe schizophrenia - and even those kinds of barriers haven't prevented people like Stephen Hawking or Terry Davis from going on to produce profound and noteworthy outputs. Obviously that's not the bar for people suffering from such disabilities, but I think most people are capable of much more than we give them credit for. How about the ones that aren't actively providing 'value' or are in fact providing negative 'value'? That is one of the reasons i find 'value' based belief systems, when considering people, to be a weak foundation. Stephen hawking is a bad example because he was 'valuable' before his disability kicked in fully. Modern society is set up for the 'average' person, anybody deviating from that average is working from a starting deficit. > I agree that this is a problem, and simply stripping people of benefits they spent a lifetime paying into is as fundamentally unfair as forcing them to pay into a program with no choice to opt out was. The solution needs to be compassionate, and it logically follows to me that the people calling for radical reform should be the first to offer self-sacrifice to be part of the solution. Agreed and currently the head of the division in charge of creating and applying those solutions (or deciding to cut existing ones) in the US government thinks empathy is a weakness and is a multi-billionaire. > I'm a big proponent of allowing everyone to have the option to permanently opt out of receiving benefits for life from these programs, in exchange for a small tax credit or deduction to offset the FICA taxes they will continue to pay in to help fund benefits for the current or near-current retirees. I'd be the first to volunteer for such a program. This is interesting as a concept, though i doubt many of the current governments could pull off the administrative side of such a system. I also think, they'd actively fight any such suggestion, because given how things are now they'd have a large proportion of the current and future generations opting out, not because the governments want to provide a safety net, but because they couldn't deal with the shortfall in the budget. This would need to be part of a much larger suite of programs and support mechanisms, you think there's a homeless/drug addiction/crime problem now, just wait until you get a whole generation of people who have concrete proof they won't have a viable means of survival once they hit retirement age.