| ▲ | dcow a day ago |
| How do restaurants work, then? You can’t copyright a recipe. Instructions can’t generally be copyrighted, otherwise someone would own the fastest route from A to B and charge every person who used it. The whole idea of intellectual property gets really weird when you try to pinpoint what exactly is being owned. I do not agree with your conjecture that big corps would win by default. Ask why would people need protection from having their work stolen when the only ones welding weaponized copyright are the corporations. People need the freedom to wield culture without
restriction, not protection from someone having the same idea as them and manifesting it. |
|
| ▲ | apersona 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| > I do not agree with your conjecture that big corps would win by default. Why wouldn't big corps win by default? They have the brand name, own the resources to make more polished version of any IP, and have better distribution channels than anyone else. Can you tell me how this scenario won't play out? 1. Big corporation has people looking for new and trending IP. 2. Instead of buying the rights to it, they get their army of people to produce more polished versions of it. 3. Because they have branding and a better distribution channel, the money goes 100% to them. > Ask why would people need protection from having their work stolen when the only ones welding weaponized copyright are the corporations. People working in the field sell their copyright like Gravity Falls' Alex Hirsch:
https://x.com/_AlexHirsch/status/1906915851720077617 |
|
| ▲ | singleshot_ a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It’s more reasonable to say that the idea of intellectual property is challenging for nonlawyers because of the difficulty in understanding ownership not as one thing, but as a bundle of various elements of control, exclusion, obligation, or entitlement, even some of which spring into existence out of nowhere. In other words, the challenge is not to understand “what exactly is being owned,” and instead, to understand “what exactly being owned is.” |
| |
| ▲ | Avicebron 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | > what exactly being owned is. Thank you, this is beautifully put and very astute. Does a recipe, a culmination of a lifetime of experience, technique, trials, errors, and luck constitute a form of someone/thing's person-hood such that it can be Intellectual Property. | | |
| ▲ | singleshot_ 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | It depends. First I think we could make a distinction between not-intellectual-property and intellectual-property-with-no-protection but that doesn’t seem to be what you’re getting at. Have you taken reasonable steps to keep it secret? It could be a trade secret and if course if you steal the recipe for KFC’s herbs and spices, you will be liable for civil damages for your misappropriation of their trade secret. And if you describe a recipe in flowery prose, reminiscing about the aromas in grandmas kitchen, of course that prose is copyrightable. Should you invent a special kind of chicken fry mix and give us a fanciful name, the recipes identifier if origin - its trademark -could be protectable. But the fact that your chicken fry mix is made of corn starch and bread crumbs is a fact, like a phone book. Under most circumstances, not protectable. ianyl tinla |
|
|
|
| ▲ | ipsento606 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > How do restaurants work, then? Primarily because recipe creation is not one of the biggest cost centers for restaurants? |
|
| ▲ | hammock 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > How do restaurants work, then? You can’t copyright a recipe. They barely work. Recipes are trade secrets, and the cooks who use them are either paid very well, given NDAs or given only part of the most guarded recipes |
|
| ▲ | api a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| A restaurant is a small manufacturing facility that produces a physical product. It’s not the same at all. |
| |
| ▲ | dcow a day ago | parent [-] | | An artist is a small manufacturing facility that produces a physical (canvas, print, mp3, etc) product, no? What is different about the production of Micky Mouse cartoons? Why is it normal for industries to compete in manufacturing of physical product, but as soon as you can apply copyright, now you exclusively have rights to control anything that produces a similar result? | | |
| ▲ | api a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Let’s say I write a book or record an album and there is no copyright. How do I get paid? Musicians I suppose can tour, which is grueling but it’s something. Authors, programmers, actors, game studios, anything that’s not performed live would immediately become non-viable as a career or a business. Large corporations would make money of course, by offering all you can eat streaming feeds of everything for a monthly fee. The creators get nothing. | | |
| ▲ | autoexec 20 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >. Let’s say I write a book or record an album and there is no copyright. How do I get paid? I've purchased books that were in the public domain and without copyright. I've paid for albums I could already legally listen to for free. I've paid for games and movies that were free to play and watch. I'm far from the only person who has or would. The people who pirate the most are also the ones who spend the most money on the things they pirate. They are hardcore fans. They want official merch and special boxed sets. People want to give the creators of the things they love their money and often feel conflicted about having to give their cash to a far less worthy corporation in the process. There are people who love music but refuse to support the RIAA by buying albums. There are proven ways to make profit in other ways like "pay what you want" or even "fund in advance" crowdsourced models. If copyright went away or, more ideally, were limited to a much shorter period of time (say 8-10 years) artists would continue to find fans and make money. | | |
| ▲ | api 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | You’re talking about individual piracy. I’m talking about huge scale corporate piracy, which is already happening (laundered through AI algorithms and other ways) and would happen a lot more if copyright vanished. Part of what muddies the water here too is that copyright lasts too long. Companies like Disney lobbied for this successfully. It should have a time horizon of maybe 25 years, 50 at most. | | |
| ▲ | dcow 9 hours ago | parent [-] | | Well technically it wouldn’t be piracy once copyright banished. It’d be remixing, appropriation, derivative, etc., all legal. So make copyright like patents. That’s what a lot of the copyleft movement has been arguing for forever. Make a copyright holder demonstrate their idea is unique, manifests into a tangible output, and if so protect the creator for a limited time. Everyone is free to use the work in their own provided they pay royalties at a reasonable rate for the duration of the patent. But the status quo now with basically perpetual copyright controlled by large media conglomerates 100% stifles culture and is a net negative on society. It’s not the right to copy that needs defending, it’s the first right of a briefly protected enterprise, a reward to the creator, that needs to be protected. Copyright is like trying to cure a cough by sewing someone’s mouth shut. |
|
| |
| ▲ | csallen a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | 1. There are an infinite number of careers that do not currently exist, because their business models do not make sense. I do not think it's a great idea to keep laws on the books, that limit the creativity and rights of hundreds of millions of people, just to keep a few professions afloat. 2. You greatly underestimate the creativity of a capitalistic market. For example, on the web, it's generally difficult and frowned upon to copyright designs. Some patent trolls do it, but most don't. If you make an innovative design for your website, you're bound to be copied. And yet many programmers and tech companies still have viable business models. They simply don't base their entire business model around doing easily-copyable things. | | |
| ▲ | apersona 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | How does copyright limit creativity? If you want to write a new story about a boy wizard going to school, no one can legally stop you. If you want to make a new Mario-inspired platformer, no one can legally stop you. But if you want to make money and do it from riding the brand name association of Harry Potter or Mario, they can. |
|
| |
| ▲ | RHSeeger a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | It looks like you're being purposefully ridiculous. There is an obvious difference between the two; cost of reproduction. For something with a cost of reproduction near zero (book, music, art, etc), IP restrictions matter. For something like a restaurant, factory, etc; the cost of reproduction is high. | | |
| ▲ | dcow 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's not obvious at all! You are citing the only difference that typically comes up. A quesadilla is beyond trivial to reproduce and most people have the ingredients readily available. 3D printers make it trivial to reproduce things that would have been obviously hard to reproduce a few years ago. A book is hard to reproduce if it's not in digital form. Is MIDI a song or a set of instructions? Source code is easy to copy but hard to reproduce. Source code is just a recipe telling a compiler what to do. And we've already established that recipes aren't copyrightable because it was "so obvious" at the time copyright was established that you shouldn't be able to copyright the creative process. |
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | awesome_dude a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Closed source - when was the last time your restaurant told you what was in, and how to make, your favourite dish? What's in Coca Cola? What are the 11 herbs and spices in Kentucky Fried Chicken? How do I make the sauce in a Big Mac? |
| |
| ▲ | dcow a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, and notably the source recipe can’t be copyrighted. Trade secrets and recipes are not copyrightable. That’s the point. We have entire vastly profitable industries built around protection of trade secrets, with no copyright in play. Competing to make make the best cola flavored beverage or the best burrito is a thing. Competing to make the best rendition of Snow White, is not. What’s the rub? They don’t seem that different at all. | | |
| ▲ | card_zero a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Snow White is not the best example, there are non-Disney versions, like the one with Sigourney Weaver and the one with Chris Hemsworth. | | |
| ▲ | badmintonbaseba 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's a good example of what happens when a copyright is expired. | |
| ▲ | dcow a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I imagine they're licensed--the original creator or their estate had to be looped in to make them happen, and probably financially benefitted. | | |
| ▲ | card_zero a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The original creator of the German fairy tale? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Snow_White_tale I see a mention of Ovid ... copyright has probably expired. | |
| ▲ | slg 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I can't explain the exact link, but your repeated and vocal pro-AI stance in this thread feels connected to the way when you got called out for a simple and inconsequential mistake that any of us could make, you immediately doubled down on it all while the truth was a single Google search away. | | |
| ▲ | dcow 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | We're talking about copyright in this subthread, in the context of AI. I'm not sure how a copyleft slant implies pro-ai, but whatever. There are a lot of reasons to be dubious about AI. But "AI is going to destroy human creativity and ingenuity" is not one that concerns me. And "society would be better without AI" is not an axiom I hold, so yeah I'll respond to that type of supposition when it's thrown into an otherwise interesting discussion. I could just be wrong about Snow White's original copyright. As indicated by my use of "I imagine", no I didn't search the origins of it. I'm not seeing a big "double down" moment where I asserted that Snow White is definitely owned by Disney--that would be the cinch. In fact nothing about my reply contradicted the GGP adding that maybe Snow White isn't the best example. Why are you so bothered? Anyway, Snow White doesn't have a recent progenitor then it kinda proves the point that the world works perfectly well in the absence of copyright, and that the ability to freely remix culture is a fundamental human right. TIL that Snow White was originally a German fairytale and I'm relieved that Disney hasn't asserted copyright over it. | | |
| ▲ | autoexec 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | Like many of the disney movies that came from fairy tales the basic story of Snow White isn't copyrighted, but some elements you'd expect in a Snow White story were added by Disney and are protected. The biggest one is the names and personalities given to the seven dwarfs (happy, grumpy, doc, etc). If you made your own snow white movie and included those characters or had them singing "Heigh-Ho" you could expect to get sued into bankruptcy by disney lawyers. |
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | awesome_dude 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | How does someone close source a book? | | |
| ▲ | dcow 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | If the book is the compiled work, then the source of a book is the author's creative process. And certainly that isn't open to all simply by purchasing the book. But less obtusely: you don't copyright a book--which is why knowledge, language, literature should not be closed source. We'd have to find a different model to support authors than trying to prevent people from copying books. Patreon style models where you subscribe and get behind the scenes access to the creative process, additional content, early access, etc. seem to work well as do sponsorship models like YT where the more viewers you draw the more you get paid, rather than a fixed fee per individual to watch a video. And, simply pay-what-you-want based models where everyone understands they can contribute in a way that matches the value to them and their means also work. One of the strongest arguments for piracy is that the pirate would never have paid $700 for Photoshop in the first place so the value "lost" isn't real and never would have been realized by the author(s). (Note this argument doesn't work for petty theft of physical property because the thief deprives the owner of tangible property.) | | |
| ▲ | awesome_dude 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | There are precisely three models for funding Private - this includes funding by selling item(s), licensing work, and private equity State Charity - this includes volunteers, patrons, donations, sponsorships. Charity relies on people willing to donate for the betterment of others. State funding fails because of the political nature of the person holding the purse strings. Licensing, copyright, physical sales are the only thing that artists have to sell. You "patreon" style falls somewhere between closed source - you can only access if you buy your way behind the curtain, and charity, where creators have to rely on people donating so that their works can be seen by others (for free) | | |
| ▲ | dcow 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | I am supportive of private and charity funding. I think we can do it without a focus restricting copying. I think this because there is precedent with any industry that relies on trade secrets. Once I can copy a Coke with a food printer we'll be having some really weird internal consistency issues with copyright. | | |
| ▲ | awesome_dude 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm not seeing a convincing argument from you other than "Once I bought a book that was public domain" |
|
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | soulofmischief 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > when was the last time your restaurant told you what was in, and how to make, your favourite dish Today? All the time? I just went into a new local joint today, talked to the owner about adding some vegetarian meals, and we hashed out some ideas in terms of both ingredients and preparation. As a pescetarian and cook myself, I frequently ask establishments detailed questions about ingredients and preparation |
|