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| ▲ | voidspark a day ago | parent [-] | | He is setting a bar, saying that that is the "true" generalization. Deep neural networks are definitely performing generalization at a certain level that beats humans at translation or Go, just not at his ARC bar. He may not think it's good enough, but it's still generalization whether he likes it or not. | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 a day ago | parent [-] | | I'm not convinced either of your examples is generalization. Consider Go. I don't consider a procedural chess engine to be "generalized" in any sense yet a decent one can easily beat any human. Why then should Go be different? | | |
| ▲ | voidspark a day ago | parent [-] | | A procedural chess engine does not perform generalization, in ML terms. That is an explicitly programmed algorithm. Generalization has a specific meaning in the context of machine learning. The AlphaGo Zero model learned advanced strategies of the game, starting with only the basic rules of the game, without being programmed explicitly. That is generalization. | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 a day ago | parent [-] | | Perhaps I misunderstand your point but it seems to me that by the same logic a simple gradient descent algorithm wired up to a variety of different models and simulations would qualify as generalization during the training phase. The trouble with this is that it only ever "generalizes" approximately as far as the person configuring the training run (and implementing the simulation and etc) ensures that it happens. In which case it seems analogous to an explicitly programmed algorithm to me. Even if we were to accept the training phase as a very limited form of generalization it still wouldn't apply to the output of that process. The trained LLM as used for inference is no longer "learning". The point I was trying to make with the chess engine was that it doesn't seem that generalization is required in order to perform that class of tasks (at least in isolation, ie post-training). Therefore, it should follow that we can't use "ability to perform the task" (ie beat a human at that type of board game) as a measure for whether or not generalization is occurring. Hypothetically, if you could explain a novel rule set to a model in natural language, play a series of several games against it, and following that it could reliably beat humans at that game, that would indeed be a type of generalization. However my next objection would then be, sure, it can learn a new turn based board game, but if I explain these other five tasks to it that aren't board games and vary widely can it also learn all of those in the same way? Because that's really what we seem to mean when we say that humans or dogs or dolphins or whatever possess intelligence in a general sense. | | |
| ▲ | voidspark 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | You're muddling up some technical concepts here in a very confusing way. Generalization is the ability for a model to perform well on new unseen data within the same task that it was trained for. It's not about the training process itself. Suppose I showed you some examples of multiplication tables, and you figured out how to multiply 19 * 42 without ever having seen that example before. That is generalization. You have recognized the underlying pattern and applied it to a new case. AlphaGo Zero trained on games that it generated by playing against itself, but how that data was generated is not the point. It was able to generalize from that information to learn deeper principles of the game to beat human players. It wasn't just memorizing moves from a training set. > However my next objection would then be, sure, it can learn a new turn based board game, but if I explain these other five tasks to it that aren't board games and vary widely can it also learn all of those in the same way? Because that's really what we seem to mean when we say that humans or dogs or dolphins or whatever possess intelligence in a general sense. This is what LLMs have already demonstrated - a rudimentary form of AGI. They were originally trained for language translation and a few other NLP tasks, and then we found they have all these other abilities. | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Generalization is the ability for a model to perform well on new unseen data within the same task that it was trained for. By that logic a chess engine can generalize in the same way that AlphaGo Zero does. It is a black box that has never seen the vast majority of possible board positions. In fact it's never seen anything at all because unlike an ML model it isn't the result of an optimization algorithm (at least the old ones, back before they started incorporating ML models). If your definition of "generalize" depends on "is the thing under consideration an ML model or not" then the definition is broken. You need to treat the thing being tested as a black box, scoring only based on inputs and outputs. Writing the chess engine is analogous to wiring up the untrained model, the optimization algorithm, and the simulation followed by running it. Both tasks require thoughtful work by the developer. The finished chess engine is analogous to the trained model. > They were originally trained for ... I think you're in danger here of a definition that depends intimately on intent. It isn't clear that they weren't inadvertently trained for those other abilities at the same time. Moreover, unless those additional abilities to be tested for were specified ahead of time you're deep into post hoc territory. | | |
| ▲ | voidspark 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | You're way off. This is not my personal definition of generalization. We are talking about a very specific technical term in the context of machine learning. An explicitly programmed chess engine does not generalize, by definition. It doesn't learn from data. It is an explicitly programmed algorithm. I recommend you go do some reading about machine learning basics. https://www.cs.toronto.edu/~lczhang/321/notes/notes09.pdf | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I thought we were talking about metrics of intelligence. Regardless, the terminology overlaps. As far as metrics of intelligence go, the algorithm is a black box. We don't care how it works or how it was constructed. The only thing we care about is (something like) how well it performs across an array of varied tasks that it hasn't encountered before. That is to say, how general the black box is. Notice that in the case of typical ML algorithms the two usages are equivalent. If the approach generalizes (from training) then the resulting black box would necessarily be assessed as similarly general. So going back up the thread a ways. Someone quotes Chollet as saying that LLMs can't generalize. You object that he sets the bar too high - that, for example, they generalize just fine at Go. You can interpret that using either definition. The result is the same. As far as measuring intelligence is concerned, how is "generalizes on the task of Go" meaningfully better than a procedural chess engine? If you reject the procedural chess engine as "not intelligent" then it seems to me that you must also reject an ML model that does nothing but play Go. > An explicitly programmed chess engine does not generalize, by definition. It doesn't learn from data. It is an explicitly programmed algorithm. Following from above, I don't see the purpose of drawing this distinction in context since the end result is the same. Sure, without a training task you can't compare performance between the training run and something else. You could use that as a basis to exclude entire classes of algorithms, but to what end? | | |
| ▲ | voidspark 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | We still have this mixup with the term "generalize". ML generalization is not the same as "generalness". The model learns from data to infer strategies for its task (generalization). This is a completely different paradigm to an explicitly programmed rules engine which does not learn and cannot generalize. |
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| ▲ | daveguy 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | If you are using the formal definition of generalization in a machine learning context, then you completely misrepresented Chollet's claims. He doesn't say much about generalization in the sense of in-distribution, unseen data. Any AI algorithm worth a damn can do that to some degree. His argument is about transfer learning, which is simply a more robust form of generalization to out-of-distribution data. A network trained on Go cannot generalize to translation and vice versa. Maybe you should stick to a single definition of "generalization" and make that definition clear before you accuse people of needing to read ML basics. | | |
| ▲ | voidspark 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | I was replying to a claim that LLMs "can’t generalize" at all, and I showed they do within their domain. No I haven't completely misrepresented the claims. Chollet is just setting a high bar for generalization. |
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