| ▲ | gweinberg a day ago |
| It doesn't make sense to me that the piece should start with a 17 month rest. Surely it doesn't really start until the first note is played? |
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| ▲ | Isamu a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| It’s a deliberate provocation, he certainly anticipated exactly this sort of response. In a sense he is exploiting a lack of rules that would prevent a piece from starting with this long of a rest. In other words, he is hacking the process. |
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| ▲ | dahart a day ago | parent [-] | | To be fair, while the piece is a deliberate provocation, like some of his others, the rest wasn’t imagined by Cage to take 17 months, that’s just an artifact of someone else’s decision to play the piece for 639 years. In typical performances while Cage was alive, the opening rest wasn’t more than a few seconds. |
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| ▲ | itishappy a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Ever been to see an orchestra play? In my opinion, the part where the conductor puts his hands up and the audience and orchestra both grow quiet in anticipation of the start of the piece is semantic. |
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| ▲ | hinkley a day ago | parent [-] | | Especially given how loud and sometimes discordant the tuning process is. | | |
| ▲ | dmoy a day ago | parent [-] | | Pedantic note, the tuning is typically before the conductor raises the baton. Depending on the concert, it is often done before the conductor even comes on stage. |
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| ▲ | ssttoo a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Beethoven’s 5th symphony (da-da-da-DAA) starts with a rest too, it’s not unusual to notate like this. Many pieces have “pickup” measures which are not complete and much shorter than a full measure. But when the pickup is more than 50% of a normal measure, it’s no longer much of a pickup and starting with a rest to make up the complete measure makes sense. |
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| ▲ | bigstrat2003 a day ago | parent [-] | | That's all fine and dandy when you're talking about a genuine piece of music. But for something like this, counting a rest that goes for 17 years is taking it way too far. | | |
| ▲ | mingus88 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Please explain what makes a composition “genuine” and show your work | |
| ▲ | noman-land a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is as genuine a piece of music as the original. | |
| ▲ | robin_reala a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | 17 months. But in what sense isn’t this a genuine peice of music? It certainly meets Merriam-Webster’s definition: a: vocal, instrumental, or mechanical sounds having rhythm, melody, or harmony b: the science or art of ordering tones or sounds in succession, in combination, and in temporal relationships to produce a composition having unity and continuity | | |
| ▲ | cwillu a day ago | parent | next [-] | | An exploration of what is and is not a piece of music, like this work explicitly is, needs to acknowledge the possibility that the answer might be “no, this isn't”. Dictionary definitions are entirely irrelevent except insofar as they provide the inspiration to ask “wait, but is that _really_ all a work of music is?” | | |
| ▲ | trbleclef a day ago | parent [-] | | One of HN's few(?) music appreciation professors here: in fact, I start every term posing this question. It's hard to teach music appreciation before a group of humans can agree where music begins and ends :) At the end of the day, like everything else it's a certain degree of statistics and a certain degree of subjectivity. |
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| ▲ | lmm a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Does it in fact have rhythm, melody, harmony, unity, or continuity? If it's too slow for any human to actually observe those qualities in it then I'd argue that it does not. | | |
| ▲ | dagw 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Are you talking about the composition or this particular performance of that composition. This performance may be too slow for any human to actually observe, but the composition is just a piece of sheet music you can read and judge like any other composition. This is far from the first performance of this piece, it's just that most other performances have been in the 20 minute to 20 hour range. | |
| ▲ | kelnos 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Do photons and electrons not exist, because we cannot observe them directly? You can certainly play a recording of the piece at whatever speed you desire, and decide if it has rhythm, melody, harmony, unity, and continuity. Extremely slowing the piece down does not remove those things. | |
| ▲ | robin_reala 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It’s playing a chord, so harmony exists by definition. It also has 600 years of continuity planned in. | | |
| ▲ | cwillu 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | And if a tree falls in a forest with no one to hear it, it makes a sound by definition. …and yet that answer entirely misses the point that the question is about the choice of definition. |
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| ▲ | itishappy a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Not the 639 year recital? |
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| ▲ | cfbolztereick a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Complaining about a rest (however long) in a piece by the composer of 4'33'' is certainly A Take. |
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| ▲ | williamdclt a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Regardless of the philosophy of it (which is certainly interesting), many pieces uncontroversially start with a rest. If the first bar doesn’t start on a note, then the piece starts on a rest. You could argue that the first bar is actually shorter than all the following ones and only starts on the first note, but… no one thinks like that that I ever heard of |
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| ▲ | jancsika a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Surely it doesn't really start until the first note is played? That question itself is built on a radical assumption. Example: Just skimming, it looks like 38 out of 48 of the fugues from Bach's WTC Books 1 & 2 begin with rests followed by several beats worth of melodies in the first measure[1]. If you think the piece only really starts when the first note of the melody is played, then you've got problems. Either: 1. You hear the first articulation of the melody as the downbeat. But that would mean the first measure is in a disparate (and probably irregular) meter. Radical! 2. You hear the incomplete first measure as an anacrusis, or a kind of unaccented lead-in, to the second measure: OMG even more radical! You can use accent patterns on a modern piano to play any of these fugues using either of these methods, and it will sound silly to non-silly keyboard players. What's more, non-silly keyboard players do feel the pulse for the first downbeat of these pieces when they perform. Most of them will even inhale before the downbeat, as if they are somehow singing the melody through their fingers. Finally, lots of music begins with rests: not just conservative cases like Bach, but progressive cases like the beginning of Beethoven's Fifth, and of course the radical cases like Cage's. This leads to one of the things I love about Cage's music: it compels criticisms that reveal fundamental misunderstandings about music. E.g., you don't buy the radical case-- perhaps reasonable. But you then speculate there are no cases-- which is at odds with common musical practice. If Cage's music did nothing but compel these questions it would be worth its weight in pine nuts. Edit: 1: Bach does this because nearly all the fugues have three or more independent melodies singing at the same time. If they are all singing on every downbeat it can quickly sound really clunky and predictable. |
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| ▲ | feoren 20 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > 2. You hear the incomplete first measure as an anacrusis, or a kind of unaccented lead-in, to the second measure: OMG even more radical! Why is this radical at all? This is exactly how most humans perceive it: as a lead-in to the second (I might even argue first) measure. It's very strange to me to say that most humans are supposed to understand the piece to have started before any sound is played. In fact that's quite preposterous: play a song that starts with a rest to 1000 people and ask them to gesture as soon as the song starts, and every single one of them will gesture on the first note played. How are they supposed to perceive the song to have started any earlier than that? A song "starting with rests" is written that way to make it understandable to the performer who is reading the notation. It's a purely notational thing. The notation is not the song, the sound is the song. | |
| ▲ | lmm a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > If you think the piece only really starts when the first note of the melody is played, then you've got problems. Either: > 1. You hear the first articulation of the melody as the downbeat. But that would mean the first measure is in a disparate (and probably irregular) meter. Radical! > 2. You hear the incomplete first measure as an anacrusis, or a kind of unaccented lead-in, to the second measure: OMG even more radical! Why? Why can't you just say the piece starts partway through a bar, and we notate that with a rest for convenience? Just as when a piece ends partway through a bar we would generally accept that it ends when the last note ends (and while we might notate that as being a full bar in the case of a long held note, we don't always play it that way), not after some trailing rests, and we wouldn't consider this as being some kind of radical accented thing. | |
| ▲ | rtpg 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > This leads to one of the things I love about Cage's music: it compels criticisms that reveal fundamental misunderstandings about music. E.g., you don't buy the radical case-- perhaps reasonable. But you then speculate there are no cases-- which is at odds with common musical practice. Love this thought. You disagree with an extreme interpretation, do you take the exact opposite? If not, up to where do you go? This idea is applicable to so much |
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| ▲ | tokai a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Check out his other work 4'33". It's an even more extreme try at silence as music. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4%E2%80%B233%E2%80%B3 |
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| ▲ | mykowebhn a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Not unless it was a "meaningful", aka "musical", rest |
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| ▲ | bongodongobob a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Lots of music starts with rests. If the first note isn't on the 1, you'll have rests before it. Not usual at all. |
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| ▲ | feoren 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | If the first note isn't on the 1, you'll write rests before it, so that the person reading your sheet music understands what's going on. That doesn't mean the music has started yet. The notation is not the music. |
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| ▲ | kbutler a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| In a live orchestra performance, the conductor raises his hands. The audience quiets in anticipation. He gives an up tick indicating the beginning of the music, then the downbeat of the start of the first measure. No sound is heard. The conductor continues to mark time. The silence is deep...profound. The conductor continues to mark the time of the passing measures. The audience listens. At some point, positive sound breaks the silence - suddenly, loudly destroying the stillness! Or possibly very nearly silently - at the uncertain threshold of perception, the audible music begins... |
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| ▲ | lazystar a day ago | parent [-] | | > the audible music begins... right, so it begins when the music starts playing? | | |
| ▲ | egypturnash a day ago | parent | next [-] | | It is 1973. You go to your hi-fi setup, a veritable temple of sound reproduction. You peruse your library and select an album. Or perhaps you have a new one that you have carefully carried home from the store. Whichever. You lift up the cover of your turntable. Carefully, you extract the vinyl disc from its cardboard and paper sleeves. Taking care not to touch it by its surface, you place it on the turntable. Perhaps you clean its surface with a special lint-catcher designed for this. You lift up the needle by its little handle. Delicately, you place it on the disc, in the space between the very edge and the visible band of the first track. There is an anticipatory crackle. A fuzzy pop. The sounds of the needle skidding across the smooth surface of the disc, and dropping into the groove. A pause. And then the music begins. Perhaps the music begins loud and fast. Perhaps it doesn't. Perhaps it's a few words from the bandleader, welcoming you to their new album. Perhaps it's a collage of natural sounds that gradually gives way to music. When, precisely, did you begin the experience of "listening to music"? ---- It is 2025. You take out your phone. You turn off its notifications. You find your headphones and put them on. Perhaps they give off a beep complaining of being out of power, and you have to put them on the charger, and dig up your backup pair, possibly along with an adaptor to plug them into the headphone jack that no longer exists on your new phone. You open up Spotify, Youtube, whatever you use to stream music. You type in the name of what you want to listen to. You hit 'play'. Your phone begins downloading music off the internet. Perhaps first there's an ad. Perhaps several ads. Perhaps not. Perhaps it takes a while to buffer. It's an indeterminate thing. And then the music begins. As before, perhaps it hits the ground running immediately; perhaps there's some collection of anticipatory sounds, some pause, before the music really gets into gear. Perhaps it's interrupted five seconds in by your discovery that this is actually just the first five seconds of the track followed by an ad for Bitcoin, or the discovery that this is a track with a name similar to what you asked to be played, and you get to go back a few steps. Perhaps you actually get what you wanted. At what point did you begin the experience of "listening to music"? | | |
| ▲ | jacobgkau a day ago | parent [-] | | You typed a really long comment, but you're not talking about the same thing. Listening to an ad before a song starts is very obviously not part of the music, even if it's part of "the experience of listening to music (on a streaming service)." The ad before a song plays is not included in the song's official runtime. You're essentially describing the time the audience sits waiting for the orchestra to walk onto the stage as being "part of the experience of going to the orchestra." Which is fine, but it's not considered part of the song (unless the composer's quirky and writes "walk onto the stage" at the beginning of the music sheets, which is basically what this guy did with the 17-month rest). Moreover, nobody was actually sitting in that cathedral for 17 months listening to the first rest. If a 17-month rest is played in the middle of a forest and nobody hears it, was it really a 17-month rest? Who experienced that "experience?" |
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| ▲ | throwway120385 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | The experience begins when the conductor starts marking time. | | |
| ▲ | jacobgkau a day ago | parent | next [-] | | There doesn't seem to be a conductor at all in this performance, and there certainly wasn't one for the entire 17 months that the rest lasted. (The person in charge of this project, Rainer Neugebauer, is not conducting; the linked article makes mention of a speech before the note was changed, but nothing about marking time.) Not that I'd expect a conductor to be needed for a soloist performance, but it makes the whole "when the conductor raises his hands" point a little off-topic. | |
| ▲ | bigstrat2003 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's like saying "my meal begins from the time I start driving to the restaurant". It's just not true. | | |
| ▲ | p_j_w a day ago | parent | next [-] | | It’s more like saying your meal begins when you sit down at the table, which is a proposition that a lot of people would agree with. | | | |
| ▲ | malcolmgreaves a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Incorrect. A rest is as important to music as a note. | | | |
| ▲ | dontlikeyoueith a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's nothing like that, but you're entitled to be confused and wrong. | | |
| ▲ | bmacho a day ago | parent [-] | | Technically it's okay to be confused and wrong, but it is not really okay to be vocal about it. It just steals people's time. Maybe it is deliberate trolling, how should we know? Better to be moderated out |
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