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If they have to fire people, they're running it poorly, so yes?

If you've spent any time in business at all, you know it's always the tea lady who gets fired first and the managers last. Many commenters here seem to live in some kind of fantasy world.

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InsideOutSanta a day ago | parent [-]

>the people running the business should fire themselves first?

You were questioning whether they should, not whether they will. That's what people are responding to. They understand perfectly well who will get fired first.

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alvah a day ago | parent [-]

I was questioning the idealism actually. There’s not much to be achieved by wishing the world was a certain way, it’s generally more useful to deal with the world as it is.

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InsideOutSanta a day ago | parent | next [-]

What idealism? The person you responded to said they didn't expect things to change unless there were real consequences. Not expecting things to change is the opposite of idealism.

But even if they were idealistic, arguing with people for wishing the world was better is a genuinely odd thing. If you followed your beliefs, wouldn't you understand that telling people not to wish for things is pointless? If you actually dealt with the world as it is, you would not argue with people on the Internet because changing somebody's mind, particularly in the way you are attempting to do it, is just as much wishful thinking as hoping that CEOs will fire themselves.

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alvah 16 hours ago | parent [-]

"I'm of the mindset that any time a company does layoffs, they should start from the top And work down"

That idealism.

	▲	InsideOutSanta 8 hours ago \| parent [-]
		It's stating a preference. Having a preference is not idealism because idealism requires some amount of belief that the preference can be achieved. "I believe I will be a millionaire by age 30" is idealism. "I won't be a millionaire by age 30 unless I rob a bank, but I should" is not idealism; it's just a factual statement about one's preference for wealth. And, again, why are you arguing with me at all? If you followed your advice, you'd understand that it is pure idealism to expect me to change my mind. As somebody once said, "There’s not much to be achieved by wishing the world was a certain way; it’s generally more useful to deal with the world as it is." It's odd to scold people for stating their preferences, and it's even odder to scold them for something you seem to be doing yourself. If you actually believed in the things you advocate for, you would not be in this thread.

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no_wizard a day ago | parent | prev [-]

If we don't talk about what we feel is ideal, we can never strive to achieve it.

Its really important to discuss idealism for that reason alone

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alvah a day ago | parent [-]

Good luck with changing human nature, i.e. persuading managers to voluntarily act against their own self-interest. That’s just not how people work.

What you say is true in some cases, but not in all cases.

	▲	no_wizard a day ago \| parent [-]
		Can't even try if we don't talk about it. The issue with line of 'clear thinking' is it leaves no room for change. If enough people take talk into action, we could reasonably see a change in behavior. It may come from sources than we don't expect, but it can happen all the same and we only have a chance at getting there if we are wiling to talk about what is ideal and raising that awareness. Its an important piece of that puzzle