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EcommerceFlow 2 days ago

Tom, please fix the flag abuse problem. It's gotten to the point where I realize there's no point in commenting on many threads, given my opinions, some of which are very normal nationally.

kstrauser 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

When I've found myself being publicly tsk'ed by the people around me, I've taken a moment to try go figure out why they disapprove of what I'm saying. It's been a useful life exercise.

ceejayoz 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Sometimes you're right, sometimes they are. Sometimes, as the Rick & Morty quote goes, "Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer."

kstrauser 2 days ago | parent [-]

For sure, but then the followup question is "do I want to spend my time and energy around a bunch of people I think are wrong?'

ceejayoz 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

If they're correct, maybe?

kstrauser 2 days ago | parent [-]

If they're correct, and constantly telling you you're wrong...

ceejayoz 2 days ago | parent [-]

… you have an opportunity for self-improvement.

Tadpole9181 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Often times, you comment not to change the mind of the person you're replying to, but to provide a rebuttal for the readers at home. If nobody challenges problematic ideology or corrects misinformation, it can spread like a disease.

dkjaudyeqooe 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Shouldn't that be directed to those with an agenda who and are flagging certain posts?

Those of us who complain about this highly targeted flagging just want to avoid censorship. I can't see how we need to reflect on this.

dpkirchner 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Forums like this are "censored" and that's a really good thing. We don't need a steady stream of (for example) hate for women, minorities, and trans people that you see on truly uncensored forums.

fwip 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

This is correct. For the people who disagree, go read Slashdot at -1 for a while. Then pretend that you're one of the people who are targeted by that vitriol, and think about how much you'd read the HN comments if they were like that.

dkjaudyeqooe 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I agree, but when that is abused because of a minorities' preference, then it's bad.

That's what's happening here.

dpkirchner 2 days ago | parent [-]

I think we need to get specific -- what preferences are you referring to, and who is the minority?

EcommerceFlow mentioned opinions that are "very normal nationally." I don't want to assume the worst so I'm trying not to read in to that.

bee_rider 2 days ago | parent [-]

I mean, I don’t generally like to go over somebody’s posting history because it feels like stupid very-online silliness, but they brought it up.

I see some unflagged center-right political opinions sometimes. It is stuff that a mainstream democrat would probably disagree with but find, like, not odious or offensive. Therefore I think they are just getting flagged because any political opinions here have a chance of getting flagged. This is how the website is supposed to work, if we as a community decided that mainstream political opinions were ok, the site would become a place to argue about what exactly is considered mainstream.

cbeach 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

All illegal speech should be hidden from public discussion.

However, it would be disconcerting if stating biological facts led to censorship on a forum that focusses on science and technology.

The definition of "hate" has been stretched a lot over the last few years, and if that restricts discussion of facts and ideas, then it is harmful.

kstrauser 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

One major problem is when people presume that their simplistic understanding of a subject is factual, and that everyone else is going off emotion. For example, some people will erroneously claim that the 2 genetic human options are "XX = woman, XY = man". Those seem to be the most likely combinations, partly because we don't collect DNA from 100% of the population and compare it to the observed anatomy, but they're clearly and documentedly not the only options.

Even without considering trans people, it's factually untrue that "XX = woman, XY = man, and those are the only possibilities." And yet, people who stopped at high school biology will argue until they're blue in the teeth that anyone with a more nuanced take is anti-science.

biddlybop 2 days ago | parent [-]

Yes and some people will also make scientifically inaccurate claims like "sex is a spectrum" and "there are more than two sexes" and "it is possible for humans to change sex".

There's a great deal of misunderstanding around this topic. Having open-minded, interesting and reflective discussion about topics like this should however lead to greater understanding. But that is not possible if it gets flagged and censored.

Zak 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

"Stating biological facts" is code for an opinion about how society should view trans people, which is off-topic for HN.

cbeach 2 days ago | parent [-]

If stating certain facts is made illegal (by our democratically-elected representatives) then by all means HN will need to censor those facts for the sake of its own self-preservation.

But until then, we should be free to state facts.

> The old adage “I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say it” was once a touchstone of liberal society. Having been involved for most of my adult life in areas of social debate, it was a phrase I once commonly heard. Not any more.

> Instead, public discourse is marked by efforts to find offence, destroy the character of opponents or ensure reason is smothered by emotional manipulation.

> -- John Deighan https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/banning-those-w...

fwip 2 days ago | parent [-]

"Stating facts" does not mean you are following the other rules of the site.

For example, if you irrelevantly post "My software is on sale now for 10% off and here is the link!" on every story, everything in it is factual, but it's spam regardless.

I'm sure your specific facts that you want to post are in service of a particular social or political viewpoint you are trying to push, one that the people flagging find either off-topic or odious. And, given that you refuse to elaborate on what specific facts you think are banned, reveals that you think you only can convince people by being vague about what specifically you mean.

cbeach 2 days ago | parent [-]

I'd love to be clearer about my common-sense, scientifically-backed viewpoints, but if I did so it might result in hostile action being taken against me. So I choose not to.

Not because I'm insincere about my views, or because I believe they are harmful - but because the activists pushing the ideological views I oppose have been demonstrably violent and destructive.

fwip a day ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

bee_rider 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

They are flagging posts that they see as pushing an agenda. There isn’t some official separation of agenda-less and agenda-full ideas.

cbeach 2 days ago | parent [-]

Posts that break guidelines should be flagged, and the bar should be pretty high.

I don't think there is a guideline that bans posts from "pushing an agenda" (which would be very subjective)

dpifke 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

From https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html: "Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity."

"Agendas" are often ideological battlegrounds. I flag comments, even those I agree with, that I recognize from experience are going to lead to the same tired, off-topic debates and flame wars.

Lately, I've also been maintaining a personal uBlock Origin filter list to hide certain prolific rule breakers. I would love if HN had an equivalent built-in "killfile"[0] functionality for auto-hiding submissions and comments. (This has been suggested to the admins, and was seemingly received favorably, but I'm sure it's a matter of resources.)

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_file

Teever 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How do you feel about flags being public?

cbeach 2 days ago | parent [-]

That would be very positive IMO. It would expose bad actors.

However, the bar for creating new accounts is low, so bad actors could create lots of accounts cheaply and use them for flagging. That's why I think flagging needs to be a privilege that requires a high user "trust level" - see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43559629

AnimalMuppet 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I draw a distinction between posts and comments here.

Comments that are "pushing an agenda" are noticeable because they Just. Will. Not. Deviate. From. The. Party. Line. Ever. They will never acknowledge an opposing viewpoint's point, no matter how valid. It's not a good faith conversation, and it deserves to be both downvoted and flagged. When one side (or both!) is like talking to a brick wall, this is often what's going on.

Posts are harder. If user X posts articles pushing a viewpoint, that's harder to prove that they're intending to do that. Or it would be, except that user X will also usually be active in the discussion about the article, and their comments will fit the above pattern. If you see that, then you can say that the post was probably pushing an agenda as well.

bee_rider 2 days ago | parent [-]

Despite being a small-ish site, HackerNews does still suffer from the Reddit problem of having enough users that you often don’t get to really know anybody. Realistically most conversations here only go back and forth for like 3 or so comments on each side. I mean, the site is structured to promote that kind of thing; reply buttons start getting hidden after a point, right?

I don’t think anyone really can be convinced to deviate from a strongly held political belief in a handful of posts. At this point I think most people with any interest in politics have already seen every path through 4 or so posts around their opinions.

Standard talking point, standard counterpoint, standard objection that the the counterpoint is not back by data, request for citations, citation, argument that the math was wrong, and by now the thread is a week old and we’ve forgotten about it.

So, I wouldn’t say it is an issue of people being bad faith or overly obstinate. It’s just a bad format. Old phpBB boards and those sorts of sites were better for this sort of stuff, despite being mediocre, because at least you could remember who was who.

AnimalMuppet 2 days ago | parent [-]

All right, here's an example. X makes a post on one side of a position. Y makes a thought-provoking reply on the other side. X replies with "So what's your point?" X either fails at reading comprehension, or X is trying to make it look like Y didn't have a point, because X doesn't have a good reply to Y's point, and X wants everybody else to not notice that Y actually had a good point.

I hate seeing that. It's a bad-faith argument. It's the sign of someone who's just there to argue, not to have a curious conversation. That is, it's a sign of someone who isn't within the spirit of the site guidelines.

No, I don't think this is just my personal bias against that style of posting. It's fake and juvenile, and it has no place on HN.

Another way you can tell: When they're replying to 20 comments with the same 2 or 3 talking points. That's someone who's there to do battle, not to have a conversation. They aren't really replying to the 20 comments, either - they're just spraying the same canned responses all over the place. That's not a conversation; that's a tape recorder in transmit-only mode.

aliqot 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't think the person getting flagged is always deserving of the dogpile. Your comment implies "you should take this time in timeout to think about your actions" which is just a gentler form of rhetorical struggle sessions, and not always warranted.

kstrauser 2 days ago | parent [-]

For sure. I've had comments flagged that I thought were perfectly reasonable and non-controversial. My first reaction was to be angry and annoyed. But then my kinder angels suggested that perhaps I phrased my idea poorly and people misunderstood that I was largely agreeing with them, or at least very respectfully disagreeing. And then I decided to be more careful with my phrasing next time.

bowsamic 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah the flagging is definitely much worse than it used to be. I’ve seen very legitimate LLM critical posts with lots of upvotes and comments flagged

dang 2 days ago | parent [-]

Many people feel that flagging is worse than it used to be, but they don't agree at all on what should or shouldn't be flagged. That makes this feedback less actionable than one might assume.

HN gets tons and tons of threads that are critical of LLMs, so it's possible that the ones you're seeing get flagged are just below median quality and/or overly repetitive of previous discussions.

Tadpole9181 2 days ago | parent [-]

Hey, Dan. I'd be really interested if you could share more about the metrics. As the climate of the world around us has changed, I think a lot of us at least feel flagging has become a cudgel used to silence opposition. Me, for criticism of the current administration. Others, for their views on topics like gender.

Maybe we just care more and notice it about that subject now. Maybe it's always been this way. But while you often leave long comments that go into how these systems work and the struggles with trying to adjust them or understand of it's even necessary (good stuff), I would be fascinated to see a blog post or something where you really give us a talking to about the state of the community and anything y'all have been trying on your end.

Just a thought, obviously, you have a whole job moderating already! Have a good day!

dpifke 2 days ago | parent [-]

Dan and Tom can speak to this, but by my reading of the guidelines, "criticism of the current administration" and "views on topics like gender" are both explicitly prohibited:

"Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity." (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

It has nothing to do with being on the side of "the opposition" or "the man," it's because those sorts of posts inevitably lead to the same, repetitive, off-topic debates and flame wars.

Flagging should be used as a cudgel against posts that break the rules. There are plenty of places on the internet to debate politics and gender; HN is not one of them.

Tadpole9181 2 days ago | parent [-]

No, I'm talking about stories that are extremely relevant to hacker news and techies.

Which is attested to by Dan repeatedly manually unflagging these posts afterwards, which is an explicit approval that these posts follow guidelines.

pvg 2 days ago | parent [-]

stories that are extremely relevant to hacker news and techies.

That's a difficult argument to make, especially without examples because at the end of the day, everything is related/relevant to everything somehow. HN's on-topicness remit is not really 'extremely relevant to techies'.

bee_rider 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

A political talking point can be nationally popular but still political, so, outside the scope of the site.

Anyway, which nation? I think we also aren’t allowed to push Communist party talking points here, despite that party being highly supported in some countries (not that I’d want to, just saying, nationally popular doesn’t mean much).

eddyg 2 days ago | parent [-]

A lot of people don't read the Hacker News Guidelines⁽¹⁾ before submitting and deserve to be flagged. Quoting (emphasis mine):

Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.

⁽¹⁾ https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

nubinetwork 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

You say that, but there was a big thread on Val Kilmer on the front page this morning...

kubb 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

He died, I'm fine with making an exception for it.

milesrout 2 days ago | parent [-]

Why? He isn't relevant to HN at all. Is every celebrity death newsworthy on HN now?

kubb 2 days ago | parent [-]

Maybe he was significant to a lot of hackers. The death was also untimely, which reminds us to cherish the time we have. Many of us are in our 50s or 60s.

bee_rider 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

This is not really mysterious or anything, though, right? They allow bending of the rules for stuff that is not likely to devolve into a big stupid political flame war, because, like, pick your battles.

Also I’d expect there to be some annoying edge cases if they tried to ban that sort of discussion. I mean, Kilmer is not a tech person. But tech people die sometimes too. Arguably discussing their life as people is outside the scope of the site. Maybe we shouldn’t have had a conversation about how great a guy Mr. Moolenaar was and just discussed the technical aspects of his life’s work. But, come on, that’d not really be a human way of responding to somebody’s death, right?

If we’re going to have these sort of lightly rule breaking threads, then I don’t think it is necessary to ask the mods to adjudicate exactly who’s technical enough to warrant one. It’s a fuzzy spectrum anyway, we have tech people, tech policy people, STEM outreach people, tech YouTube influencers, celebrities that played beloved nerd characters.

timeon 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon

Maybe time will tell if it was actually OT.

ziddoap 2 days ago | parent [-]

>Maybe time will tell if it was actually OT.

When that time comes, if it comes, then you'd be within the guidelines to post it.

Preemptively posting it just in case it later becomes some new phenomenon is not ideal.