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kareiva 9 hours ago

There is nothing to hate here. I have given numerous PIP's as a manager and only actually fired once. The purpose of a PIP is to improve, not to fire a person.

deskr 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

How on earth can you be a good manager and not realize that saying "your performance is shit, we're going to fire you unless you take this course and we deem you've passed" is totally and utterly soul destroying to a person?

therealdrag0 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

What’s the alternative? Give them a rainbow sticker? It’s business among adults, performance matters. If you can’t meet expectations then it’s not a good fit. That’s part of life.

sunshowers 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The alternative is to very seriously ask if the primary reason for underperformance lies with management rather than the individual. We are a social species and a large part of our behavior is are determined by our social environment. The PIP process does not incorporate this very basic fact about us.

therealdrag0 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Any serious organization will take that into account for the managers own performance. Their job is people management, and so losing an employee is potentially a strike against them and they need to be able to justify the firing was not their own failure but the employees inability to perform, which is part of the process. You can also get some signal about this on how other employees are performing, if every employee’s under performing then obviously it’s a cultural management organization issue, but no organization can be all things to all people often there will just be bad fits and people need to be able to move on.

sunshowers 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Ah, well, I guess in that case most organizations are quite unserious.

jopsen 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

An informal pip.

You can tell someone they need to improve their performance. You can help them make a plan. And you can help evaluate the result.

Making a plan can certainly help.

You don't need to involve HR inorder to make a plan.

(Not saying that pip isn't a good concept, just that a formal pip is a last resort kind of tool)

therealdrag0 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I’ve always assumed that’s a prerequisite for a pip. Obviously managers need to give reports good feedback regularly.

jghn 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As someone who has been in that situation, it's better than "your performance is shit, you're fired". In my case a large part of the problem was that I was not picking up on what should have been obvious cues. This provided a needed wake up call, and prompted me to improve.

_DeadFred_ 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

So poor management. A manager's job is to provide their reports the tools they need to do their job, and key to that is not 'obvious cues' but explicitly stated expectations. Basically the manager didn't manage and substituted a PIP for what they should have been doing all along.

jghn 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I get what you're saying. But as the person directly involved, and as someone who has managed people over the years since, believe me when I say that the fault was my own.

ambicapter 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You're really absolving the employee from any possible blame here. Sometimes people ignore blinking warning lights until they get a wake-up call.

BeetleB 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> that I was not picking up on what should have been obvious cues.

Performance feedback should not come in the form of cues. If it does, it is poor management.

SketchySeaBeast 5 hours ago | parent [-]

"To stay off the P-I-P you must answer me these riddles three."

grahamj 3 hours ago | parent [-]

What is your favourite colour?

stavros 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A PIP should be the last chance to improve. You should have had many chances before that, with lots of clear feedback. Of course it's soul-destroying, but laying them off is worse.

sunshowers 6 hours ago | parent [-]

People have things going on in their lives! What if it's not the employee's performance but the manager's that's concerning — it's the manager who should get the PIP? What if it's the CEO's fault for creating an environment where many employees are demotivated — what if the CEO should be the one getting the PIP?

Tech still, to this day, has a problem retaining women and URMs. Conceptions of individual performance are often shaped by unintentional (or intentional) sexism and racism. Speaking personally, at my last role at FB there was a quite marked change in how I was treated after I transitioned to ~female.

The PIP process does not interrogate all this nearly as much as it should. I'm quite convinced it's absolutely the wrong way to go about things — too much falls on the IC and not enough on management.

stavros 6 hours ago | parent [-]

I feel like this conversation is "bad PIPs are bad!" "but good PIPs are good" "no, bad!".

Sometimes, you can tell someone "listen, nothing else worked, and we tried for a while, so this is the last resort". Do you think it's better to fire people outright than to give them one last chance?

sunshowers 6 hours ago | parent [-]

I think most of the time, so-called underperformance is caused by the environment, not the individual. If a company cares about bringing the best out of individuals it would fix the environment.

(There are certainly some individuals that end up being a negative to the team, disrupting more than contributing, and a small minority of PIPs are justified in that sense. But most PIPs I've seen are handed out to hardworking individuals who are very clearly doing their best and are enhancing the team, just because they maybe aren't as good as playing politics, or are game theoretic doves in an environment full of hawks.)

tetromino_ 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I have had periods in my career when I performed poorly, and in virtually all cases the cause had nothing whatsoever to do with the job environment or management. (The real causes included depression and poor coping mechanisms for it, a toxic relationship, and the birth of a child.)

sunshowers 4 hours ago | parent [-]

If an employee who has a good track record is going through a period of personal or family-related issues, the employer should support them through that (and not just via FMLA). Not just morally, but also for long-term organizational health. This too is part of the work environment.

Are we building something for the next 6-12 months, or are we aiming to build a monument that will outlast our careers? Sometimes the answer really is the former, but it has very serious costs that are often unaccounted for.

stavros 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What if everyone else is performing well in that environment?

sunshowers 6 hours ago | parent [-]

I'd ask, is everyone else really performing well? What if everyone's focusing on short term self-promotion while incurring far too much technical debt? The one person focusing on rigor then gets PIPed, even though losing them would make the team far worse. (Actual case I've seen.)

edit: while I was not put on a PIP, at FB I got a "meets most" rating in the cycle where I first built cargo-nextest. In the end nextest had a far greater impact on the world than anything else management was doing, and the same people who gave me that rating now have it as a critical dependency. It's still wild to me how little focus there was on seriously thinking about long-term project health.

Volundr 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

More soul destroying than "your performance is shit, so shit I see no hope your worthwhile, get out?"

I think the GP is overly optimistic about a PIP. In general I'll say when I've put someone on a PIP, it's been with the expectation of firing at the end. "We have discussed this problem and I've made it clear you need to improve, this is your last chance, I need to see x, y, and z (where X Y and Z are as concrete and measurable as possible) or mm/dd will be your last day". It's making clear that whatever issues are involved have come to a head, and this is the final chance to fix them. My general assumption is that if spelling out the issues and providing coaching hasn't resolved the issue the PIP probably won't either, but I do see value in a clear process vs the cut just being whenever I decide to do it, with no warning that day is coming.

I have also actually seen this work in practice. I've had people who multiple conversations and coaching seemed to make no inroads, but putting that clear "if this isn't resolved by X day, we're done" expectation out there seemed to make it "real" and they've completely turned things around. I have promoted people I've previously put on a PIP.

That said my advice remains, if your put on a PIP it's time to start looking. I think many (most?) managers d use them cynically where a PIP is more paper trail than final warning, and the employee may be getting fired regardless. Even if that's not the case you've just been told very clearly it's not working. Something isn't working and it's better to hedge your bets and look for another job that fits better while trying to improve.

BeetleB 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> is totally and utterly soul destroying to a person?

To some, it is, and to others, it isn't.

I wonder: Is your question a byproduct of some type of educational system which had a lot of grade inflation and people get passed on to the next year no matter how poor their progress?

In my school/high school, if you got an F in one subject, you'd be held back for the whole year. In my university, they didn't grade on a curve, and had clearly delineated thresholds for A, B, C, etc. The engineering department worked hard to ensure only competent people could get an A or B (you didn't need to be brilliant - merely competent).

By the time you get a job, you should be able to handle feedback along the lines of "You're performance is not good enough for this job". With good management, this isn't a shock, and you should have gotten messaging about performance for quite a while prior to being handed a PIP. Not all management is good, though.

It should not be an identity crisis. No one is good enough for any job, and for any team. You should not go on in life thinking you'll not fail. You won't grow much that way.

I've seen management at times give the employee a ton of leeway. A friend of mine was in a SW team, and he decided he didn't like coding. The manager worked with him to give him an alternate role that was mostly related to customer support. When they'd come with a bug report or query, he'd study the (large) code base and help them if they were doing something wrong, or file a proper bug report with the team.

He still sucked (and knew it). He started working reduced hours (with the manager's approval) to handle the stress.

I kept telling him to go find another job if this one doesn't suit him. He had other skills - he'd done HW work professionally at the same company prior to switching to SW.

This went on for two years before they finally put him on a PIP and fired him. He had a grace period of two years to find another job, but didn't.

The real problem is the unfair PIP - where they want to fire you for reasons other than your performance. It begins with escalating demands that you cannot fulfill, and they use that as a pretext to put you on a PIP.

Anti-disclaimer: I've been on a (very unfair) PIP and was practically fired. Everyone I know at the company who's been on a PIP was fired. So when I say all of the above, trust me, I know the dark side of PIPs. I think they are primarily a tool to get rid of person and the manager is usually not honestly trying to redeem the person.

But even in those cases, it shouldn't be even close to "soul destroying". It's simply the equivalent of getting dumped by a boy/girl friend. Sucks, but it's expected. You move on.

devjab 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think it’s just corporate culture in some places. I’ve done a stint in management and I’ve had the “fun” of dealing with all these performance measurements. I personally think they are rather useless in any sort of office work where your employees have a high degree of independence and complex tasks. I also think they come with a huge risk of creating a working culture where employees game the system. If you clock time on the hour then you can be sure nobody is going to help each other, because how do you clock that half hour? If you sell software by ridiculously short estimates and reward your employees for meeting them, then how happy are your clients with all the post-release support they’ll have to pay for? If you have one employee who’s build internal tools that empower everyone else, but haven’t delivered on X, Y, Z and you’re personally getting judged on those metrics then how do you keep up over all productivity when you’re forced to let them go.

There are a million examples of why they are bad, and I can’t really think of any in which they are useful on their own. Which becomes the issue when decision makers advance in ranks and “I don’t dare make decisions without covering my ass” managers slip in. Or when HR gets too much political power and push their tools as the law. Often organisations simply grow into poor cultures because the systemic value of measurements is shit compared to individual management. This is of course helped along by bad managers, who when given too much freedom create an organisational culture which is far worse than the meritocracy of data driven management.

I think it’s a little rough to judge someone who may have grown up in these cultures as a bad manager from a couple of lines of text.

neofrommatrix 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Maybe they like the power, and this makes them feel powerful. Signs of a good manager, of course. /s

mrbungie 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Putting people in PIP or firing them, are not good experiences, period. Only socio/psychopaths would feel powerful and good about having peoples future in their hands, and not all managers are socio/psycopaths.

SketchySeaBeast 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've never been put under a PIP, but if I were, I'd be looking for a way out. The company has told me I suck and, even if I recovered, I'd be concerned that just having had it there would hurt any future progression I had in the company.

kingbiz an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Does management ever get PIP'd? In my experience its lowly ICs that take the brunt of PIP culture.

Cpoll 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A manager should be communicating expectations regularly. PIP conventionally means "we're firing you in a few months," so you're just threatening to fire people euphemistically.

chenmike 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I’ve never heard anyone brag about giving working PIPs. PIPs are pretty demoralizing even if they “work”.

Maybe you should consider giving people feedback in non-PIP form!

therealdrag0 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Sometimes people are in lala land and don’t realize the stakes until the heat gets turned up so far.

JKCalhoun 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not in management so I can't argue with you on that. But it seems like at the time the PIP is summoned, the person has somehow made to fireable-grounds.

KaoruAoiShiho 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think the PIP is hated because it ruins the illusion of camaraderie, like an ultimatum in marriage. But really, unlike a marriage you shouldn't have that illusion in the first place, you were always a replaceable cog whose only value is what service you can do for your boss. If you always had that perspective then the PIP can be seen as a helpful encouragement to improve rather than a precursor to an actual firing.

chrisdhoover 7 hours ago | parent [-]

One should realize life is temporary. You probably will leave very little legacy. You should aspire to have a large attendance at a remembrance. My father’s funeral filled the church. An in-law’s had less than 10 people. Best you can do is have and rear good children. If hard work helps that, it will be a net benefit.

avereveard 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There might be a selection bias at hand only people that fail a pip and are fired are eventually free from nda.

dangus 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The company you worked for that allowed you to operate this way is in the minority. For 99% of companies the PIP is a documentation and CYA step to ensure that the employee goes away quietly, without things like filing for unemployment or suing the company.

For most companies the purpose of a PIP is to fire a person.

therealdrag0 6 hours ago | parent [-]

What evidence do you have for this statistic?

dangus 3 hours ago | parent [-]

None, sorry to disappoint your request for “source????.” It’s just common sense, finding someone who exits a PIP successfully is like finding a needle in a haystack.

therealdrag0 3 hours ago | parent [-]

There’s multiple people in the comments of this post alone who have self exited a pip. And I know at least one in person myself. What’s common sense is that Common sense doesn’t mean much, people often draw false conclusions from narrow sample sizes among other fallacious beliefs and reasonings. Asking for a source should always be acceptable by anyone who has an allegiance to truth. Let’s be honest with each other.

Plasmoid 2 hours ago | parent [-]

There is going to be a fair amount of selection bias in pip announcing they beat a pip. Getting fired isn't fun and so people won't brag about it. There are also other comments in this thread about people being pip'ed dishonestly.

So people's experience will fall into a few categories: * People who are not doing well * People where the expectations of the job are (honestly) different between employee and employer. * Trying to create cause to fire an employee / avoid layoff news.

therealdrag0 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Absolutely, that’s why it’d be interesting to have an actual study about it. Otherwise it’s just runaway speculation, and all we can say is there are many companies and managers and they all work differently and your experiences may vary.