Remix.run Logo
MostlyStable 2 days ago

This is so weird. They are mad that they didn't get paid for voluntarily participating in a program that never offered any pay? There are legitimate artist complaints around AI (I don't always agree with them, but they are reasonable complaints to have and are part of very important conversations about how society chooses to interact with AI), but this has got to be the silliest one I have heard so far.

ENGNR a day ago | parent | next [-]

I’m guessing they gave feedback and felt that it was ignored. So rather than let the trial end and let OpenAI say “we even ran it past a bunch of artists, there’s no problem here” - someone decided to flip the table, since they were unheard anyway and felt there were unresolved issues

hnlmorg a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I suspect their protests stem from those legitimate artist complaints.

Basically that they aren’t being compensated for testing a tool that is ultimately intended to replace them.

I can definitely forgive their complaints when it’s framed that way. But I do agree that the article doesn’t do a particularly good job representing their view point.

soco a day ago | parent [-]

But... why were they using/testing it in the first time? It's not like not being paid was a secret. Or maybe they registered exactly to setup this sort of protest? Because they are totally entitled to protest against AI taking jobs, just the particular conditions are a bit weird to me.

hnlmorg 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don’t know.

If I were to give them the benefit of doubt, I’d guess they joined because they initially saw this more like the AI vs chess type contribution where their contributions would be publicly demonstrated and praised rather than just used to beta test.

They might not have been aware of how many other people were asked.

They probably also underestimated the tool’s capabilities and then got worried for their careers after using it.

It’s pretty common for people’s perception of an opportunity to change after agreeing to it. I’d bet you’ve taken on paid jobs that were less exciting than advertised. Or gone to a party that was completely mis-sold by your friends.

I don’t think we’ll ever truly know the motives that lead up to this leak.

KolyaKornelius a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Because their work is being devalued by AI, wether they participate or not.

lolinder a day ago | parent [-]

So you're suggesting that they joined the program specifically to leak it later?

2muchcoffeeman a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe they realised what they were really doing after the fact and changed their minds. They can’t really do anything about it so they are doing what they can.

It a bit silly to think people won’t learn new information and change their minds.

thyrox a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I've been eagerly awaiting access to the tool for quite a while.

I would definitely be willing to pay to try it out and provide feedback in addition. I'm genuinely surprised by this news.

lemoncookiechip a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You can read their open letter yourself, whether or not you agree with their logic is up for you to decide.

https://huggingface.co/spaces/PR-Puppets/PR-Puppet-Sora

shkkmo a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> This is so weird. They are mad that they didn't get paid for voluntarily participating in a program that never offered any pay?

Companies have been getting ever bolder about abusing volunteer and crowd sourced labor. When the participants are bound by strict NDAs, I think some skepticism is in order.

All we really can tell is that non-neglibigle percentage of the participants in a limited access program were creeped out enough to be willing to blow up their access to call attention to it.

I don't think this story is really even about AI at all, but about labor practices.

andersa a day ago | parent [-]

How is it possible to "abuse" volunteer labor? Can't they just... stop volunteering?

grahar64 a day ago | parent | next [-]

The same way you can abuse paid labor, "can't they just quit?"

andersa a day ago | parent | next [-]

I think that's quite different, though. If someone is currently doing paid labor, they indeed can't just quit in most cases, because they depend on the income.

But there's no such thing with volunteering to try a new service. That's just something people do because they feel like it, are bored, enjoy it in their spare time?

dsign a day ago | parent | next [-]

Unless those artists depended on (free) access to the model for monetization purposes. There have been some AI videos popping up in Youtube and other platforms. Creating a video using traditional CGI techniques is many orders of magnitudes more work than writing (even pages of) prompts.

To that, I will add that there is a large market for content outside mainstream media[^1]. I'm sure there are creative folk out there which are not visual artists as their main thing[^2], but can use cheap visual art coming from AI to generate some sort of income...

[^1]: See, for example, https://www.thinkwithgoogle.com/marketing-strategies/data-an...

ValentinA23 a day ago | parent [-]

They aren't free to post videos they generated with sora. It must be reviewed before hand

shkkmo a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> That's just something people do because they feel like it, are bored, enjoy it in their spare time?

It's an emerging technology and platform. There are economic advantages to having early access to learn what it can do.

Furthermore, this specific colunteer program appears to have an associated contest that pays creators who win. Thus you have a lot of volunteers, limited under NDA, being pushed to compete for vert limited renumeration for their efforts. I doubt most of the volunteers are bored people doing it as a hobby.

_flux a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In that case the paid labor loses their livelihood.

What do they lose when they weren't being paid in the first place?

Ratelman a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Not really a reasonable comparison - paid labour is more likely linked to income that is used for basic necessities, whereas volunteering implies freely offering to take part in an enterprise/task - thus no consequence for just choosing not to partake. Honestly seems like a bit of an emotional overreaction.

azemetre a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It’s a company that has raised billions, they can afford to pay for labor.

_heimdall a day ago | parent [-]

That's not how markets work though. If someone is willing to do it for free, and you are happy with what that person produces, why would a company pay them anyway?

shkkmo a day ago | parent [-]

> why would a company pay them anyway?

Because we have laws to protect workers. You can't just not pay an employee and call them a volunteer as a for profit company.

There a legal limitations on what a for profit company can do with volunteer labor but companies have been increasingly bold about pushing those limits.

Often times it is hard to tell if a program violates those limits since particpants are put under strict NDAs.

_heimdall 15 hours ago | parent [-]

That sounds like a definitional problem though. If a person is choosing to volunteer are they really an employee?

I general don't agree with NDAs though, so on that front we definitely agree there's an issue there. Especially for a volunteer, I would never sign an NDA when I'm volunteering my time and effort.

shkkmo a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Volunteers can be abused in many of the same ways employees can be. In general, if a volunteer at a for profit compan is doing work that benefits that company, this can be considered "competing" with paid employees and mean the volunteer position must also be paid

fragmede a day ago | parent | prev [-]

By the time the volunteer quits due to abuse, it's too late. If Mr asshole goes off and yells a bunch of obscenities at someone, sure, they can respond by quitting, but they've already been yelled at and called a bunch of names.

benreesman a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think that everyone at this point just distrusts the board who isn’t paid to say otherwise.

OpenAI is the new high watermark in moral, ethical, social, and intellectual corruption and anyone who works there who has any moral sense is deeply conflicted.

It’s cancer that has cancer. To defeat it would be like discovering a vaccine.

tokioyoyo a day ago | parent [-]

Who is everyone? Outside of very online tech enthusiasts like ourselves, nobody cares.

benreesman a day ago | parent [-]

There are degrees of infamy: clearly Larry Summers is the highest profile person who is universally loathed, but people are starting to know the other key players. It’s on TV.

tokioyoyo 15 hours ago | parent [-]

Ask an average person who Larry Summers is. Again, different bubbles different priorities.

benreesman 13 hours ago | parent [-]

I really dislike the meme that the typical person is stupid.

The typical person is the result of a ruthless Darwinian selection process that has left the typical person savvy, agile, aware, alert, and capable.

The typical person might be coded inarticulate because the education available to the typical person stresses different vocabulary than people not subject to ruthless selection pressure recently.

I’m home schooled to put it mildly, more accurate is that I was presented books and an admiration for acumen, and I deliberately delineate by degree the dramatic dismissal of people on HN who condescend to typical people.

The typical person on HN would survive about three minutes in a legitimately menacing environment.

Summers was on Jon Stewart recently. People know who he is. They might not know his long-time advocacy for maximum toxic waste disposal in Africa, but in fairness Rubin helped quiet that down. They might have forgotten that he personally knew-capped Brooksley Born at the exact perfect time to demonstrate that LTCM was the prototype for ever godawful prop deak today.

I’ll refrain from commenting on Fidji Simo out of personal experience because it would be unfair given that I’ve known her for 12 years and merely remark that the public record is a litany of OSHA violations handled more clumsily than the already low bar Amazon set.

The typical person is a lot savvier than the typical HN hot take smartass who is dramatically out of their depth.

tokioyoyo 12 hours ago | parent [-]

I absolutely agree with you regarding "typical person is not stupid" point. People just don't care about it, and don't know. It's not about stupidity, it's just not a useful information for majority of people. Knowing about internal OpenAI drama, the board members, everything that happened in the last couple of years is just very out of reach for most of the people.

It's the same if I mentioned some random people from my interest circles that you definitely won't know, but I can guarantee at least millions of people who share the same interests know about those names.

Obviously I can be wrong, but my simple sniff test is asking a couple of friend groups and bar chats with regulars, who are not in tech. Some people don't even know about OpenAI despite using ChatGPT (basically a household name now)! I'm also clueless when my friends in finance/law throw in some names and companies that I have no connection to and knowledge of.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound dismissive, probably shouldn't write comments during work hours.

rightbyte a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I prefer Pepsi to Coca Cola. I sometimes pose as a Coca Cola drinker to suddenly instigate protests among Coca Cola drinkers.

Some people think I am acting strange but I'd argue they don't see my point.

ruthmarx a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The less reasonable artist complaints are the ones where they just straight up accuse AI of stealing their work, when that's not how it works at all.

rat9988 a day ago | parent [-]

The problem stems when they change their mind but there is no new information.

throwaway290 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Maybe they agreed first and later realized that if they help ClosedAI murder their future careers and careers of other artists they might as well get paid for it.

dyauspitr 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Probably blown away by what was possible so they panicked.

0points a day ago | parent [-]

By judging from those videos, nothing can be further from the truth.

Every single video is riddled by visual artifacts just like the still images.

I saw a shaking rubiks cube, a shrinking cola bottle, and two dogs jumping into eachother and swapping places in a ridiculous way.

No artist should be threatened by this nonsense. Can't wait for the hype to die.