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I'm open to believing that this is true, but some real numbers would be nice. Surely it wouldn't be a hugely invasive change to fork the Go compiler, change the stack allocation check to `return false`, and then measure the overhead of the garbage collector on real Go programs with stack allocation both enabled and disabled.

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DarkNova6 19 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The reason escape analysis is not "good enough" is why we have project Valhalla trying to bring Value Types into the JVM.

I don't have numbers at hand, but I remember the JDK Expert Group talking about this extensively in the past and why they deferred bringing Value Types for such a long time. They hoped complex enough EA can get rid of indirections and heap allocations but it just wasn't powerful enough, even with all advances throughout the years.

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DamonHD 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I may have been answering past you - I am thinking of Java running on the JDK here. And indeed I may be out of date also.

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cempaka 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yeah in Java land specifically I think the question would become, "does the generational hypothesis still hold up once we have Valhalla and a much larger share of short-lived objects are stack allocated as value types?" but of course it may be years until the ecosystem reaches that point, if ever.

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neonsunset 17 hours ago | parent [-]

As shown by C#, it will generally continue to be relevant since both primarily use JIT compilation with ability to modify code at runtime which can violate inter-procedural escape analysis assumptions leading to heap allocations of the objects that are passed down to the callees (there is work scheduled for .NET 10 to address this, at least for AOT compilation where interproc analysis conclusions will be impossible to violate).

You can craft a workload which violates the hypothesis by only allocating objects that live for a long time but both JVM and .NET GC implementations are still much faster designs than Go's GC which prioritizes small memory footprint and consistent latency on low allocation traffic (though as of .NET 9, SRV GC puts much more priority on this, making similar tradeoffs).

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cempaka 17 hours ago | parent [-]

> ability to modify code at runtime

Would Java's moves towards "integrity by default" mean that this could be ruled out in more cases?

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neonsunset 16 hours ago | parent [-]

Reading through the JEP again it does not seem to be related - it is about deprecating unsafe APIs that the executed code itself uses. OpenJDK also has "partial escape analysis" where the object that only conditionally escapes can still be placed on the stack/scalar replaced.

I'm not privy to the exact APIs that OpenJDK exposes but in .NET the main limitation around escape analysis that spans multiple methods is the fact that CoreCLR has re-JIT API which allows to perform a multitude of actions like attaching a profiler or a debugger to a live application and forcing the runtime to deoptimize a particular method for debugging, or modifying the implementation and re-JITting the result. Debug codegen is very different especially around GC liveness tracking and escape analysis that builds on top of it - it means that even debug code would have to uphold stack-allocated nature of such object in some way, complicating the design significantly. In addition to that, debuggers and other instrumentation may observe object references that would have otherwise not escaped local scope.

This creates an unfortunate situation where the above almost never happens in production, but ignoring it and "just stack-allocating anyway" would lead to disastrous breakage for all sorts of existing instrumentation. Because Go does not have to deal with this constraint, it can perform interproc escape analysis without risk - whether a pointer escapes or not can be statically proven. For NativeAOT, .NET could approach this problem in the same way, but paraphrasing compiler team: "We would like to avoid optimizations only available for one of the target types be it JIT or AOT, and only supporting AOT would not benefit the majority of the .NET users".

There is, however, recognition that more comprehensive interproc analysis could be very beneficial, including the EA which is why it is planned to work on it in .NET 10:

- https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/issues/108931 IPA framework

- https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/issues/104936 Stack allocation enhancements

	▲	pjmlp 5 hours ago \| parent \| next [-]
		Integrity by default is what the OpenJDK folks are pushing for so that any API that can break runtime assumptions, has to be explicitly allowed, so that they can actually make use of performance optimizations that would otherwise be too risky if anyone at any time could violate them.
	▲	cempaka 15 hours ago \| parent \| prev [-]
		Yeah there's a JEP around deprecating access to sun.misc.Unsafe, but that's part of a larger effort including Jigsaw to push the Java ecosystem in the direction of modular builds, where more invariants are assumed to hold (e.g. " 'final' fields are actually final") unless explicitly opted out for each module. I would assume the lack of such guarantees in the status quo wreaks a lot of havoc with EA. Profiling and debugging would be separate considerations -- I'm really not sure what limitations those impose on the JVM JIT.

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DamonHD 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Ahem --- JDK => JVM!