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passwordoops 21 hours ago

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/china-has-more-than-...

For reference, England consumed 1 billion tons of coal during it's peak coal consumption decade.

So please stop with the "China is decarbonizing" crap, because they are not. A more accurate statement is "China understands the importance of energy and is applying an as-much-of-everything-approach to achieve its industrial goals"

tsimionescu 21 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You are comparing a country that was probably less than 5% of China's current population during that peak. And not only is China 17.5% of the world's population, it is also the major manufacturing hub for the majority of the world. 10 times as much coal as the UK's peak is still a tiny number.

The reality is that China is emitting much less CO2 per capita than the US or Canada, and just a bit more than the more industrious EU countries like Germany. And this is territorial emissions: if you take into account what percentage of those emissions is going into goods produced in China but bought by those very countries, it's probably around the EU average if not lower.

Is China anywhere near a net 0 goal? No, not even close. But among industrial powers, it is one of the ones that went by far the most into green power.

jqpabc123 33 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

https://globalenergymonitor.org/report/china-continues-to-le...

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/18/climate/climate-china-solar-w...

teractiveodular 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, China still uses a metric fuckton of a coal, but they are decarbonizing: every year, the % of energy generated by coal goes down 1%, and renewables go up 1%.

https://ember-energy.org/countries-and-regions/china/

Just to underline, this is not notional capacity (which inflates solar/wind), but actual power generation. This is all the more impressive because China's total consumption is simultaneously increasing rapidly.

tzs 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Also please stop comparing absolute numbers between countries with more than an order of magnitude population difference.

UltraSane 21 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

tsimionescu 21 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Relative numbers are what matters realistically when comparing countries. The comfort and buying power of 1.4 billion Chinese people counts as much as that of all of the citizens of the EU and USA together.

It is not in any way moral or acceptable to imagine that China or India should have lower total emissions than the EU or the USA, despite having many, many more citizens.

And this is not even discussing total historical emissions, which is what actually matters most for global warming, and where the first century of massive emissions was almost exclusively due to Europe and the USA.

UltraSane 20 hours ago | parent [-]

I know it isn't fair. Life isn't fair and neither is climate change.

tsimionescu 20 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's not about fairness. It's about the fact that countries which have huge emissions per capita can't rest on their laurels if they have relatively low total emissions. Instead, they need to take an active role in reducing emissions - both their own, and those of people in the developing world. If Germany or the UK or Norway or France (not to mention Canada or the USA) want to reduce emissions more but can't realistically reduce theirs as much, then they need to, for example, start donating green energy solutions for developing countries, to allow them to grow their economies and comfort while keeping their own CO2 emissions lower.

What these countries can't do is start pointing fingers at others and claim that people in India say, who emit 2T CO2 per capita, are the real problem compared to their 14-7.

RugnirViking 4 hours ago | parent [-]

look at the trend lines of co2 emissions per capita for countries. You might find it interesting.

heck, even just look at co2 emissions per capita NOW. we arent talking about a high and mighty high emissions population dictating down to countries with low emissions that they should reduce. We're talking about china with more emissions PER CAPITA than europe, and every individual country in europe. Many developing countries are worse than pretty much every european country. Libya, iran, malaysia, all worse than every country in europe.

Europes emissions are going down over time. Chinas are going up - in an exponential curve.

this is the point where people deflect and claim "oh, but those countries manufacture stuff the west uses, it's their fault"

It's really not. A big part of the reason they manufacture those things and the west doesnt is because the west actually bothers to hold up any kind of environmental laws at all, driving companies away

kalleboo 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yeah it's going to suck for Americans as the US has to lower their total emissions to match the country of Denmark.

tzs 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Absolute numbers matter when considering the total CO2 budget for the Earth.

When considering how to divide that budget among the people of Earth absolute numbers for countries do not matter, because the atmosphere does not care about arbitrary lines humans draw on maps.

One easy way to see that per capita is the correct way to allocate the budget rather than per country is to consider what happens if countries split. Suppose we agree on a worldwide budget of 4 x 10^10 tons of CO2/year.

If we go by country each country's share is 2 x 10^8 tons/year. That would mean in a small country like Liechtenstein they could live a lifestyle that required 5000 tons/year/person.

Meanwhile, in the US we could only live a 0.6 ton/year/person lifestyle--about what Zimbabwe uses today. That's about 1/25th of the current US lifestyle.

That is not going to work. The US could hold a constitutional convention and dissolve with each of the current 50 states becoming an independent country, and at the same time make strong free trade and mutual defense treaties. They can call this the "American Union".

That raises the number of countries in the world, so each country now gets a smaller slice of that 4 x 10^10 tons/year global emission budget. Collectively the total emissions budget of the combined states in the American Union is around 8 x 10^10 tons/year. That allows the American Union to live a 24 ton/year/person lifestyle as a whole (which is 60% more than the current US lifestyle).

Of course China, which only gets a 0.16 ton/year/person lifestyle under the original country allocations could do the same thing. If they did the Chinese Union with the individual countries being what are now prefectures, that Chinese Union could have a 15 ton/year/person lifestyle (about the same as the current US CO2 emissions.

Each time a large country does this "split into a strong union of separate countries" thing the boost in how carbon intensive a lifestyle that union's residents can lives comes at the expense of a drop in what the rest of the world can have.

The limit of this is a world of thousands, or even millions, of micro-countries, each with about the same per capita CO2 allowance.

DiogenesKynikos 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Hey, I personally produce less CO2 than the entire USA combined. I guess the USA better up its game!

makotech221 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

cool now compare the population difference.

In order to build renewable infrastructure, you do need to expend a lot of energy: mining, processing, transporting. China is using coal to build up that infrastructure and converting that dirty energy into clean.

passwordoops 20 hours ago | parent | next [-]

So when GHG absorbs energy from the sun, it's on a per capita basis?

tzs 19 hours ago | parent | next [-]

No, but when talking about whether a country is emitting more than its "fair" share of GHG for any reasonable definition of "fair" per capita is what matters, unless someone can make a convincing argument that some people have some kind of natural or divine right to contribute more to GHG emissions than others.

More details are in this comment [1].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42229636

ivewonyoung 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Why didn't you include England's total historical contributions to GHG emissions and technologies in your comparison then?

graemep 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Its not just about population. The UK was the world's foremost manufacturing nation at the time, just as China is now. It was the centre of manufacturing of an empire so the relevant comparison is with the population of the empire. There were no real alternative sources of energy - no nuclear, no solar, no wind (in a form suitable for most industry).

tsimionescu 21 hours ago | parent [-]

The British Isles were not providing food, heating, cooling, electric light, raw materials etc for the population of the British Empire.

And if you want to count the population consuming industrial goods as the population that "causes" those emissions, then China looks even better, because they are producing goods consumed by literally billions of people.

graemep 20 hours ago | parent [-]

> The British Isles were not providing food, heating, cooling, electric light, raw materials etc for the population of the British Empire.

Most of those did not use coal in most of the empire in the year of peak consumption: 1913.

It was providing a lot of raw materials.