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pdonis 3 days ago

> The disdain engineers have toward the "soft sciences"[sociology, psychology]

While I agree that disdain is not the right reaction, neither is misdescribing what these disciplines are. And the most important fact about them is: they are not sciences.

We do not have a science of how people work, how groups of people work, how collective action works. Dealing with people is an art. It requires applying non-repeatable human judgments to non-repeatable human situations, and doing so constantly, day after day, year after year, realizing that there is never going to be a stable state of things, there is never going to be a time when you have dealt with all the conflicts and solved all the problems and can sit back and relax.

Engineers are understandably uncomfortable with such a situation because it goes against everything we (I say "we" because I'm an engineer myself) are taught. We are taught to engineer solutions to problems, solutions that keep working, if not forever, at least for a long enough time that we aren't constantly having to manage them. A well built bridge does not require constant engineer attention once it is finished.

But there is no such thing when it comes to humans and human relationships. They do require constant attention in order to survive and flourish. But we have no science of how to do that, the way we have a science of how to build bridges. All we have is our fallible human judgment, and if we're lucky, some rules of thumb that, while they aren't science, are hopefully better than nothing. Unfortunately, I think what rules of thumb we have have been mostly ignored in the process of building systems like social media.

kelseyfrog 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Sociology - despite being a science - isn't required to be one in order to fulfill the objective we're discussing. It simply has to be capable of teaching people to identify things they take for granted [being universally true] to in fact be a consequence of their society.

To that degree, studying enough sociology to be able to make the statement, "Compartmentalization and hierarchy of academic subjects contributes to software engineers being unwitting used to replicate social structures," is not dependent on sociology being a science. It is true without relying on an arbitrary epistemology.

mgraczyk 3 days ago | parent [-]

The main problem isn't that it isn't a science, but that to the extent that science is used in sociology, it's mostly badly done.

Findings don't replicate, data is used to tell lies, policy built on scientific findings is mostly unrelated to the findings, focus is primarily guided by culture instead of discovery or curiosity. I read a lot of sociology, and the general level of critical thinking and concern for the truth in journal articles is much lower than biology, engineering, or even economics.

NewJazz 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We absolutely have statistical and theoretical frameworks for evaluating collective behavior.

Cite something or don't @ me.

pdonis 3 days ago | parent [-]

> We absolutely have statistical and theoretical frameworks for evaluating collective behavior.

Yes, we do, but their predictive power, if it exists at all, is very poor. Science is about building models with good predictive power. If you don't have that, you don't have a science, at least not in any way that matters.

NewJazz 3 days ago | parent [-]

That's not only what science is about.

And there are social science hypotheses that can predict outcomes.

Smithalicious 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You don't seem to understand the difference between sociology and socialising, nor the difference between science and engineering.

LeroyRaz 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Hamilton (the founding father) considered political science a science, and explicitly argues in the federalist papers how it has the equivalent of axioms that one can build and reason from

pdonis 3 days ago | parent [-]

How well have the predictions made by reasoning from those axioms worked out?

It's true that the most egregiously wrong prediction in the Federalist papers, that the US would not have political parties because it was too large, was the work of Madison, not Hamilton. But AFAIK none of Hamilton's predictions turned out very well either.