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thrwwXZTYE 5 days ago

[flagged]

adamc 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Not everyone evaluates books from the point of view of politics. Kim was a great novel that basically earned Kipling the Nobel prize at a crazy young age, and it reads like a love letter to India (until the end, when it becomes a dumb spy novel). Was Kipling jingoistic? Sometimes extremely so. That doesn't mean he didn't write anything worth reading.

Life is complicated.

stcroixx 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In the event that happens, and I'd not be surprised, I'd still expect him to remain just as popular with readers.

riehwvfbk 5 days ago | parent [-]

Luckily, it seems like the common folk have more sense than this. Recall (pun totally intended) the reaction of SF residents to funding renaming of schools to erase the specter of colonialism instead of funding math programs.

PrismCrystal 5 days ago | parent [-]

> Luckily, it seems like the common folk have more sense than this.

Not sure about that, honestly. As reading of longform text has declined with the rise of the smartphone and other distractions, and the literary-fiction publishing market is converging internationally, a significant amount of people who still read fiction represent demographics that like to view art through a contemporary political lens, often specifically North American-centric notions of race, gender, and power even if the reader hails from somewhere else.

brodouevencode 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Which book would this be? His catalog, the great bulk of it anyway, is quite prolific.

thrwwXZTYE 5 days ago | parent [-]

Crime and Punishment, obviously.

But he was a russian empire/orthodoxy apologist through and through, except for a brief period early on (which earned him the gulag).

potatoman22 5 days ago | parent [-]

Wow, I got something completely different from that book. It's crazy how two people can read the same thing and have drastically different takeaways.

lr0 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

In fact what he's talking about is a very common analysis of Crime and Punishment in literary criticism.

riehwvfbk 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Just think: if that's what he took away, he probably thinks killing old ladies is good enlightened capitalism.

thrwwXZTYE 4 days ago | parent [-]

I think presenting the philosophy you disagree with as leading to murdering innocent people is bad writing.

riehwvfbk 4 days ago | parent [-]

Much better to say they are Nazis or rapists or both, and be done with it :)

brodouevencode 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Two movies, one screen.

bryanrasmussen 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> He's most famous book is basically "don't read western philosophy cause you'll start murdering people

huh? Isn't anticolonialism usually not a big fan of western philosophy? I mean it seems to me quite a reasonable conclusion of some anticolonialist theories that Western Philosophy supports murder if not actually forcing it.

thrwwXZTYE 5 days ago | parent [-]

Western philosophy at the time ended slavery, serfdom and challanged religion and god-given right to rule.

All of which Dostoyevsky tried to defend.

Don't get me wrong - early western democracies weren't perfect or even close. But it was still an enormous improvement over what came before.

riehwvfbk 5 days ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

thrwwXZTYE 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Slavery was banned first in 1807 by British Empire.

riehwvfbk 5 days ago | parent [-]

... for white males (completed that sentence for you)

ben_w 5 days ago | parent [-]

Several errors in what you replied to, but that wasn't among them.

The 1807 Act specifically was about the slave trade not slavery, and it wasn't the first even in the UK (there's several options for the UK including 1772, 1799, 1843, 1883, 1953, 1998, 2010, or that it's still in some sense ongoing).

USA beat the UK for importing slaves by a few weeks. "British North America" (AKA "Canada before it became its own country") passed in 1793 the "Act Against Slavery".

But for your claim, the UK 1807 Act named specifically "Africa" so it definitely wasn't about white male slaves: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hxqhA3st7CcC&pg=PA140#v=...

Fluorescence 5 days ago | parent [-]

> USA beat the UK for importing slaves by a few weeks

Do not pretend for a moment that USA was leading on anything here.

1. UK had already abolished importation of slaves. No-one could be a slave in the UK since 1778 (Scotland, Eng\Wales was earlier). If you "imported" a slave to the UK, they would become free.

2. The ~1807 US/UK laws were far from equivalent - the UK act was abolishing the trade completely. The US was only ending importation. Domestic / inter-state trade was unaffected.

3. The US law came into effect 6 months after the UK one.

The day Jefferson passed that 1807 act, his 100s of slaves got a little more valuable. Who needs imports when you can abuse 16 year old enslaved girls? As he signed this act, he was, yet again, impregnating Sally Hemings so that in 1808, his 7th bastard child born was into slavery. The birth was recorded in the Farm Book alongside other livestock.

ben_w 4 days ago | parent [-]

You can add the Scottish example to the other list of years I'd already given, there was no sense of the US genuinely "leading" on that when I'd already said 1772 and 1799 — the point was simply that the 1807 act was also not much of a sign of genuine leadership.

The UK government was basically forced to do what it did thanks to campaigns against slavery, not because the politicians themselves were fully on board with it; and even more recently, despite how "we ended slavery" has become as much part of the national identity as "The" Magna Carta, the conversation about the Edward Colston statue in Bristol wasn't as one-sided as the conversation about the Jimmy Saville statue:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Edward_Colston

Fluorescence 4 days ago | parent [-]

> The UK government was basically forced

Forced? You clearly don't know the history.

It was a long campaign but the moral argument had won broad support in the population and parliament. It was literally the UK government trying to get this passed. Prime Minister William Pitt was an abolitionist as was his successor William Grenville that passed this bill. This specific bill was passed by a near unanimous majority.

Earlier bills under Pitt had passed the commons but fallen in the more conservative Lords claiming to protect "the national interest". I believe the strategies that helped tip the balance was salami-slicing to just abolish trade rather then total abolition while arguing that continued trade would lead to slave rebellions as had been seen in French colonies thus it needed to be stopped not just out of moral necessity but national interest too.

You seem intent on corrupting history to do what? Attack some straw-man concoction of British national identity? Stop it.

ben_w 4 days ago | parent [-]

> I believe the strategies that helped tip the balance was salami-slicing to just abolish trade rather then total abolition while arguing that continued trade would lead to slave rebellions as had been seen in French colonies thus it needed to be stopped not just out of moral necessity but national interest too.

Y'see, I count that as "the bare minimum done because they were forced to not because they wanted to".

Knowing that if you don't, it's going to be expensive is part of "being forced to". Getting around to it only when there's overwhelming pressure in one direction rather than 50%+1 is "dragging your feet".

The margin of what passed is on the one hand, the fact that it was only peaceameal — as demonstrated by literally all the other years on that list — is the other side of that coin.

5 days ago | parent | prev [-]
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StefanBatory 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

To a degree I see a point to this, but it's more of "I see why you feel this way, but I don't agree".

Still, it is important to mention how imperialistic Russians were - you know Pushkin, for example, right? If a public figure espoused publicly such views on any nationality as he on Poles, they'd be cancelled right away.

watwut 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Pushkin was extremist and nationalist, he was also seen as such. That is why he was propped up by the regime later on.

There is a reason why Ukrainians demolished specifically his monuments and why Russians are building them. It has zero to do with quality of prose and a lot to do with ... his extremism.

thrwwXZTYE 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Piłsudski said in early 20th century that "in Russia even anarchists are imperialists" and he was basically right. And remains so to this day.

Russia managed to somehow do imperialism/colonialism and get away with it without reevaluating their past. Probably because they colonized white people.

PrismCrystal 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Probably because they colonized white people.

Better to say that they colonized non-African or non-American indigenous people who could not be conveniently attached to vehement Trans-Atlantic chattel slavery or Catholic-conquistador narratives, because the Khanty, Buryats, Yakut, etc. have an appearance that is hardly what most people using race-based terminology would associate with “white people”.

thrwwXZTYE 4 days ago | parent [-]

They also colonized Finns, Balts, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Poles, etc.

jltsiren 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think this is an abuse of terminology. Colonial empires generally maintained a clear separation between the colonizers and the colonized. Russia usually tried to turn the conquered peoples into Russians. It's a different kind of oppression, and one which almost every nation state is guilty of.

thrwwXZTYE 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

This is a long discussion, if you want to have it I have LOTS of thoughts about it.

But short answer is - Russians absolutely have separation between colonizers and colonized. To this day.

In modern Russia the usual word to describe immigrants and non-ethnic Russians is "chorni" which basically means "blacks" and is used as a slur. There's discrimination, there's police raids on people hiring them in European part of Russia. They are overwhelmingly sent to die in Ukraine instead of "proper" Russians from the European part of the country.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/russias-ethnic-minorities-...

> The BBC found that six of the 10 Russian regions with the highest mortality rates in Ukraine are located in Siberia and the far east. And that men from Buryatia, a Russian republic whose residents are descended from Mongols, are 75 times more likely to die than men from Moscow.

Even Ukrainians before the current war weren't treated as "proper" Russians - they were "smallrussians" - the country bumpkin stupid childish version of a "proper" Russian that have to be ruled by the Mother Rossiya or they will have a failed state forever. Basically the Russian version of "the burden of the white man".

Also let's not forget Stalin took food from the most fertile part of USSR - Ukraine - and distributed it to the rest of USSR/exported it, leaving millions of Ukrainians to die of starvation in Hlodomor. And then sent "proper" ethnic Russian colonists to replace the dead Ukrainians.

Russia did the same with Crimean Tartars, just using mass murder and expulsion instead of famine.

There were also other ethnic cleansing done by NKVD. They took adress/phone books, looked at the surnames, and arrested/murdered people based on the surname endings.

Russia absolutely was and still is a colonial empire.

jltsiren 4 days ago | parent [-]

You are making the mistake of assuming that ethnicities are disjoint categories that remain immutable over generations.

Russification has been going on for 1000+ years. Often organically, and often by forced policies. People abandon their languages and cultures and adopt Russian language, culture, and ultimately identity, until one day their descendants are ethnic Russians. Some maintain the ethnic identities of their ancestors, but many – often most – don't.

aguaviva 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

No, it's just a different flavor of colonization.

Plenty of other empires have attempted to assimilate the colonized population to some degree. It's not even an unusual aspect of colonization; historically it's been a ubiquitious aspect, in fact.

StefanBatory 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm Pole so I am biased, but... What was Soviet Union but another colonial project? And not to even say of countries they annexed. If Baltic states were not in Europe, everyone would agree that it was plain colonial arrangement.

"We give them coal, and in return they take sugar from us."

samatman 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Kipling is one of the greatest authors in the English language. His work is acclaimed, universally, by anyone with taste.

So to compare Dostoevsky to Kipling is high praise!

anon291 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> unconditional surrender to orthodox christianity and tzar will cure you".

While I don't personally lean that way myself, I'm also not close-minded enough to dismiss the possibility outright.

thrwwXZTYE 5 days ago | parent [-]

Well the problem from my POV is that that exact empire he defended was persecuting millions of people, banning their languages, sending their people to forced labour camps, exterminating native people in Siberia, and keeping about 90% of the whole Russian society in serfdom (which in Russia was basically slavery).

You keep being "open-minded" about that, I prefer modernism and liberalism, thank you.

riehwvfbk 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

cpursley 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

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coliveira 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, that's the worst of modern Western culture, the belief that it is superior to any other and you don't even need to hear someone who doesn't share your modern worldviews. The result of such ideas is a culture that will try to destroy everything else and in the end destroy itself.

giraffe_lady 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Dosteovsky was criticized by his contemporaries for propagandizing the political entanglement of the orthodox church and the russian empire. He was condemned for this by non-russian orthodox christians including at least one greek bishop. So even by the standards of his time there was conflict about the political nature of his work.

There's not one "that perspective" in history from which to evaluate anything. The person you're responding to is using modern nomenclature but the problem they're point at is one that was clear to dostoevsky's contemporaries and was raised during his life.

watwut 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The other products of the same time did criticized them too. Trying to paint the past people as a monolithic mass where everyone loved your hero, simply because you like his book and do not know much of who he really was in the context, is annoying too. Many famous writers are famous because they were political actors first. It was politics that got them famous in the first place. It was also politics that killed their or their opponents lives and careers too.

Also, the good stuff he produced is as much product of the time as the bad stuff. If you can celebrate someone, you should be able to accept also some less adoring evalution.

5 days ago | parent | prev [-]
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