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aguaviva 4 days ago

Some will say that it existed for a brief moment in the 90s-2000s.

So were the Nuremberg Trials not an instance of the RBWO?

(And all the UN mediations in e.g. Palestine, Korea, etc. from its very founding)

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sofixa 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

The UN mediation and general work in Palestine was objectively a failure.

Korea... it preserved South Korea's dictator in power, which allowed for a modern democratic and prosperous South Korea to happen. Back then it was little more than protecting the US-backed dictator against the Soviets-backed one. Both were pretty terrible and murderous.

	▲	aguaviva 4 days ago \| parent [-]
		In regard to Korea -- it was also about the principle of maintaining recognized borders, and their involiability. The UN was also instrumental in bringing the conflict to an end (along with Stalin's death and the general state of exhaustion on both sides -- but nonetheless, it was instrumental). And yes, they were both awful dictatorships at the time (and the South would continue to be, for decades to come) -- but's also not like there isn't a considerable difference between the two societies, now, generations later. Palestine - many failures, but there've also been many important resolutions that have kept the conflict (at least somewhat) framed in terms of the RBWO and the rights of the region's indigenous inhabitants. We also have the Geneva Conventions, etc. So in sum - yes, many failures, but on balance I see the glass as more half-full than half-empty, on this issue.

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owenversteeg 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The Nuremberg Trials were backed by the most force the world had ever known! And even then, the Allies wiped their ass with the rules (that they mostly made up ex post facto) and grabbed any Nazis that were useful and plenty that were not. Even putting aside all the Paperclip scientists, who absolutely knew what they were involved with, the US took plenty of SS officers - Otto von Bolschwing, Klaus Barbie, Alois Brunner, etc. Everyone violated their own “rules” left and right and occasionally, if they could be bothered, made up justifications later. This is not a controversial view: in fact the contemporary British opinion was that you can’t make up laws ex post facto and the Nazis should just be executed. The Soviets anticipated a show trial and their “judges” did nothing before phoning Moscow first. The Nuremberg trials were the 1940s legal equivalent of Calvinball.

To the mediators, I’m unsure why that would be an example. We’ve had mediators for a very long time and UN mediation is only the latest flavor of that.

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wqaatwt 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Nuremberg Trials

They were effectively arbitrary show trials.

I mean a tiny proportion of nazi war criminals were ever prosecuted and the (covertly pro-nazi) West German government pardoned pretty much everyone who weren’t executed in a handful of years.

Also the Soviets (and even the Allies) continued doing whatever they wanted with no consequences.

Of course at least establishing a clear precedent was a huge achievement.

	▲	aguaviva 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		Of course at least establishing a clear precedent was a huge achievement. Glass half-full, is what I'm saying.