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▲ YZF 4 days ago

[flagged]

▲HeavyStorm 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Tell us about the West Bank, then. What is happening there right now and how it relates to Hamas?

I do think there's evidence, plenty of, that Israel is doing its best to expel the Palestinians.

I don't pretend to understand how it's to be a country surround by enemies, and there's a lot of history there that explain all of this. But the current facts - all the destruction in Gaza - can't be justified, ever.

You say that ICC has no investigative power. But ONU has people on the ground and has been denouncing Israel for months...

▲xchip 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

UNO has been denouncing Israel abuses and occupation for years

▲YZF 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

▲atoav 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> The majority of Israeli would like to find some sort of win win solution where everyone can live in peace. The majority of Palestinians don't see any solution that includes Jewish people living in the region.

[citation needed] Because your equivalent on the other side would say it is exactly the other way around, and both of you would feel unarguably right. So unless you base your claim here on a neutral trusted source I would file that away as someone's gut feeling that may be part of a political bubble.

Your palestinian counterpart could point out the same, as far as I know more than three quarters of the palestinians alive today did not vote for Hamas, since they were kids when that vote took place in 2006. Your Palestinian counterpart could point to the fact that their people are unarguably more restricted than an Israeli citizen living in the same area or to the fact that their territories got smaller over the decades which is surprising given your statement about a lack of Isreali ambition to drive them away — did the Palestinians voluntarily gift that land away or how did that happen?

Now sure, in reality this conflict is much more complex, and the history of the Palestinian territories has to do with repression, terrorist responses, constant military intervention, settler ambition and so on. But if — in effect — you drive the other people out, even if "you don't want to", you are driving them out, period. And for that you just have to look at a timeline of the border over the history of the region, without bothering yourself about all complexity, which in this conflict is abused by both sides as an excuse.

Todays younger generations in the West perceive Israel as the stronger force (and it is) and as such feel that Isreal has a moral duty to de-escalate the conflict. Now that 80% of the Gaza strips population is displaced and this is the conflict with the most dead children than any other recent conflict¹, taking about not wanting to drive them away seams a tad bit cynical — one could infer from that they are not to be driven away, but to be erradicated.

In any way this will mark the sad point in history where the decline of support for Isreals ambitions in the West started and Isreal won't even see it coming, since their own perspective on the conflict is skewed by their own propaganda. A support Isreal both needs and given its early history also deserved. But taking it too far has consequences.

And as someone who grew up with 3 brothers: It is for the stronger one to stop the conflict and act with controlled force. And Isreal is the stronger one and right now it is beating the smaller brother into a bloody bulp in stupid rage as the rest of the world watches in absolute horror.

¹: https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/more-women-and-child...

▲YZF a day ago | parent | next [-]

This came up on my feed: "I Go Undercover in Palestinian Cities" | The Ask Project

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5RuRLovXUk

This is Corey, the guy who does this project where he asks random Israelis and Palestinians questions, being interviewed. I highly recommend his channel to anyone who wants a better understanding of the conflict. He's not taking sides and he asks difficult questions (coming from his viewers) about the conflict to both. If you pursue this you will certainly find out how much you do not know about this conflict.

To some of your other points since I'm revisiting:

- There are dead children because Gaza is extremely dense and half the population are children. That said the blank statement is not useful because the Palestinians counts are iffy, one example is that they include combatants who are under 18yo, and it deflects blame from Hamas from operating under the cover of children and not providing for their safety. This is not to say we should not feel sorry for dead children. Most critics of Israel are unable to offer an alternative way for Israel to defend its citizens given the specific circumstances. If Israel had a magic weapon that only killed Hamas militants I'm sure they'd use it. If you're asking Israel to send soldiers into an urban environment to ensure no uninvolved are killed instead of dropping a bomb on the enemy, I'd say, within reason, go with the bomb. That's what any military would do, what the US and its allies did against ISIS and in other places. That's how wars are fought. Nobody puts their own soldiers lives at risk to protect civilians the other side puts at risk by their actions.

- The argument that Palestinians didn't get to vote since 2006 is also pretty weak. One reason they didn't get to vote is that the PA didn't hold a vote because Hamas would win. Polls show broad support for Hamas amongst Palestinians. Either way, they are the government of Gaza whether they enjoy support or do not. When non-democratic countries go to war their citizens suffer consequences whether they got to elect their government or not. We should feel for the unfathomable numbers of young Russians that have died in Putin's crazy war on Ukraine. Does that mean that Ukraine should surrender because those Russians didn't vote for Putin in a free and democratic elections? No.

- Israel has to, under international law, ask civilians to evacuate and indeed facilitate their evacuation from combat areas. That's exactly what it did. Now the West attacks Israel for doing exactly that. I would say there's nothing Israel can do that's right. If you can suggest a reasonable path for Israel to protect its citizens from Hamas and earn the support of the critics I'm all ears.

- I'd love for there to be a way for Israel to de-escalate the conflict. I lived in Israel during the suicide attack campaign that Hamas waged on Israel as Israel was trying to make peace with the Palestinians and get to a two state solution (circa 2000). The failure of that process and the failure of Israel's withdrawal from Gaza proves there is no partner for any sort of de-escalation. Again, go check out some of those videos. The escalation came from the Palestinians (and Iran) and Israel has no practical way to de-escalate.

I also grew up in Israel at a time where Palestinians from the West Bank and Gaza had complete freedom of movement in and out of Israel. Israelis shopped in the west bank and Gaza. Palestinians worked in Israel. There were essentially zero settlements and zero settlers. The PLO (backed by the surrounding Arab countries) murdered Israeli civilians left right and center. Not because of the settlements, not because of road blocks, not because of settlers attacking Palestinians. Just because Israel exists. The Palestine they want to liberate is and has been all of Israel. This is not about the individual freedoms of the individual Palestinian and how Israel "oppresses" them. A by the way is that when Israel took Gaza from Egypt in the 6-day war many Gazans were extremely happy to not be under Egyptian rule. The Egyptian and Jordanians, prior to 1967, didn't consider for a microsecond giving the Palestinians their own country over those areas that they controlled. But both are happy to ask Israel to do that now.

▲YZF 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

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