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edanm 4 days ago

> My question, though, is does pushing these kinds of toothless resolutions make any difference beyond showing that the ICC essentially has no power to enforce its warrants?

Absolutely this matters.

This effectively limits where Netanyahu and Gallant can travel to. That's a big deal for a head of state. It sends a signal to all of Europe to be wary of doing business with Israel, which is a big deal.

We also don't know if there are any hidden warrants for other Israelis, and more importantly, if this is a precedent for future warrants. If the court starts issuing warrants for other IDF military personnel, that becomes a huge negative for Israelis.

Animats 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

At some point Netanyahu will be out of power. He's been voted out of office before. He's in trouble politically. He promised a short, victorious war over Gaza, and got into a long major war against Iran and more countries instead. The next government might decide to turn him over to the ICC simply to get him off the political stage.

edanm 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> At some point Netanyahu will be out of power.

I wish and hope that's true.

But I think some of your analysis is really incorrect, unfortunately.

> He's been voted out of office before.

Yes, he was out of power for about a year of the last 15 or so years, and got back into power.

> He's in trouble politically.

True, and I hope it stays that way. However the elections are still two years away, there doesn't seem to be any pathway to forcing the elections to happen sooner, and he is gaining ground, not losing it. It is very much a possibility that he holds on to power.

> He promised a short, victorious war over Gaza, and got into a long major war against Iran and more countries instead.

I'm not sure he actually promised a short war. That said, the war against Lebanon is probably the most successful thing he's done in terms of restoring his power. It's entirely possible that acting more aggressively against more enemies is a winning strategy for him.

> The next government might decide to turn him over to the ICC simply to get him off the political stage.

This basically reads as completely wrong to me. Almost every politician on every side of the aisle in Israel has condenmed the ICC. The intrusion into Israeli sovereignity is a big blow to Israel, implying that Israel's democracy isn't trusted to hold people accountable by ourselves.

Even if privately opposition leaders would want Netanyahu gone, giving him up would be suicide politically.

klipt 4 days ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

bawolff 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The next government might decide to turn him over to the ICC simply to get him off the political stage.

That seems very unlikely. If the next gov really hates him they might prosecute him domestically (the things he is accused of are all illegal under israeli law), but i can't imagine they would hand him to the icc.

Not just because that would look bad, but also because icc is supposed to be a court of last resort only to be used where domestic courts fail.

da-x 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"instead" ?!

There was already a cold war with Iran before Oct 7, and many warned it could pop any moment. It could be said to the detriment of Netanyahu that he ignored that and didn't want this on his watch. Iran was priming and planning for a moment where a joint Hezbollah-Hamas ground invasion would have put the Israeli military to a stress beyond its means, and with many thousands casualties on the first day. It would have happened sooner or later if it wasn't for the Hamas independent action.

Also, on Oct 2023 he and other officials said it is going to be a long battle from the beginning. He never once promised this to be short. And also, a clear victory from a long war gets him more electorates, so he aligns his own victory with Israel's.

ashoeafoot 4 days ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

barney54 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It will not happen to that next administration would turn over Netanyahu to the ICC. Even if they wanted to, he would seek asylum in the U.S. Embassy and he would certainly be granted asylum.

computerfriend 4 days ago | parent [-]

The US never grants asylum to embassy walk-ins.

LocalH 4 days ago | parent [-]

Do you really think the US would turn Netanyahu away?

forgotoldacc 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

One thing I've learned these past 20 years: when an awful political leader seems to obviously be undergoing a downfall and on their way out of power, you can be sure they'll be there 20 years later. And they'll outlive all of us too, even if they're already geriatric.

seanp2k2 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

As it turns out, being a very powerful person politically with access to nearly unlimited funding can get you pretty great medical care.

blitzar 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> when an awful political leader seems to obviously be undergoing a downfall and on their way out of power

whenever this is happening there is a war

eszed 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

<Henry Kissinger has left the chat>

But... Yes.

4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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dustyventure 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The next government might decide to turn him over to the ICC

The next person to win a fight for a most exclusive position may decide it should be of substantially less value.. But usually only as a tactic to get the position.

majikaja 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>The next government might decide to turn him over to the ICC simply to get him off the political stage.

I thought it was the USA that makes these decisions

ngcc_hk 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

International crime or not, the long war with Iran like the long war with Russia is not a choice by Biden/netanyahu. It is always Iran here … can Iran promise a short one. Russia will as well. Just no Isreal or Ukraine.

I have no idea how to resolve this. It is a mess. But one side needs to be PC and the other side was constrained to do this and that. When is icc warrant on putin and get him really arrested.

We hope for peace, rule based … but that is hope. One side disarming will not help.

4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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know-how 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

hn_throwaway_99 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> We also don't know if there are any hidden warrants for other Israelis

Honest question, are "hidden" warrants a thing at the ICC? Seems like it would be difficult, as the ICC doesn't have an enforcement arm of its own, so I would think warrant information would need to be circulated to all the treaty signers, at which case it would be pretty impossible to keep hidden. I tried searching but couldn't find anything - all the results were just about this Netanyahu situation.

jki275 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What this really does is remove the ICC's authority.

It's one of those things -- if you make up rules and then can't enforce them, pretty soon no one cares what you say about anything.

sillyfluke 3 days ago | parent [-]

>What this really does is remove the ICC's authority.

Not yet. The UK and Italy both declared that they would be legally obligated to abide by the decision, which is unprecendented and historic in itself. Sure, Netanyahu could call their bluff and go to these places, and if they backpedal, then it would undermine the ICC's authority like you said. But Netanyahu would have to call their bluff for that to happen, or they would have to do an about-face before he arrives.

But until then, I would suggest that even the fact that just two well known western democracies quickly backed the ICC's authority (regardless of what they thought of the ruling) just gave the ICC more authority than it ever had before.

jki275 3 days ago | parent [-]

They're making noise, but they will absolutely not act on them. That would be a career ending event for many political figures in both countries.

petre 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> It sends a signal to all of Europe to be wary of doing business with Israel, which is a big deal.

They can resume business once Netanyahu is gone.

In fact Viktor Orban has already invited him to Hungary to the dismay of EU officials. His plane would need permission to fly in other countries' airspace anyway so it would be qiite a risky stunt.