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none-the-less, it is a clear escalation ON THE INVOLVEMENT OF EUROPE AND THE US in the war.

It is not that Ukraine are escalating the war by using long-range missiles. Of course Russia have been using them all along.

But it is a clear escalation in western 'participation' in the war.

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soco 6 days ago | parent [-]

So "finally replying to constant attacks" gets redefined by putin as escalation, no surprise here. Or is there any other argument I'm missing?

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valval 5 days ago | parent [-]

Well the somewhat obvious thing you’re missing is that Russia is waging a war against Ukraine, not the US or NATO.

From that follows the logical conclusion that it’s not the US’ or NATO’s job to “reply to constant attacks”, and instead getting involved in the conflict is just that — waging war against Russia.

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soco 5 days ago | parent [-]

Let me get this one: so russia and now nk waging war about whoever they please is a fact of life, while answering to that is escalation, right?

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valval 5 days ago | parent [-]

Would depend on the definition of this term "escalation" that you and many other people use. It sounds to me like a silly thing to say. Isn't it natural to try and win a war as quickly as possible?

Joining in on a war that you're not part of is a deliberate and calculated choice in the same manner starting a war is.

What exactly are we even arguing about? I think it's massively irresponsible of NATO to get involved in the war through military aid. Sanctions and humanitarian aid are one thing, but every single NATO member should have been involved in finding a peaceful way out of this conflict since 2010 or before.

If what you're saying is the opposite, that NATO should attack Russia with as much force as possible to "win the war" (that we have no business being part of in the first place), then I'll just call you crazy and move on. Enough brave soldiers have died on both sides, it's time to find a solution that ends the killing, not amplifies it.

	▲	soco 5 days ago \| parent [-]
		Yes I've heard this magic solution before and it always means the Ukraine giving up and letting the orcs win. Somehow those peacenicks never propose russia going back home, isn't it ironic.