| ▲ | jl6 7 days ago |
| > How many instances of trans athletes in female sports have there been? If it’s a small number, then presumably it’s not worth fighting over and sport can just have Open and Female categories? |
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| ▲ | sofixa 7 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| Maybe, yes. But what is "female"? The Algerian boxer was born female, but has high testosterone due to whatever medical condition, which ruled her out of some previous competitions that had conditions around that. Do you want sports governing bodies to inspect genitalia? Do blood tests? Especially when it gets into kids' sports territory, this gets very iffy very fast. |
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| ▲ | jl6 7 days ago | parent | next [-] | | “Female” is well-defined for 99.99%+ of the population (and for most non-human species too, in fact). For those with DSDs, a judgement call can be made. For example, a person with XY chromosomes and the 5-ARD DSD (who was raised as a female due to the appearance of their external genitalia) has testosterone in the normal male range and thus is likely to have an advantage over females, and thus should not compete in the female category. Cases of genuinely ambiguous sex are vanishingly rare, and are nothing to do with trans identities which are differences of social gender that do not change the underlying biology. | |
| ▲ | fiffled 7 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The available evidence indicates that Khelif is actually male: two blood tests from two independent labs revealing an XY karyotype, a member of Khelif's training team describing problems with hormones and chromosomes and that Khelif has been on medication to adjust testosterone to within the female range, and a leaked medical report which describes Khelif as having the male-specific disorder of sexual development 5-alpha reductase deficiency (5-ARD). This implies that Khelif is not female but is male, and went through male puberty, therefore having the male physical advantage in sport caused by male sexual development. | | |
| ▲ | sofixa 7 days ago | parent [-] | | So what you're saying is that she transitioned from male to female in Algeria? That sounds unlikely. | | |
| ▲ | fiffled 7 days ago | parent [-] | | No, just erroneously assumed to be female and issued with identity documents stating this. Same as has happened previously with other male athletes in women's sports, such as Caster Semenya who also has 5-ARD and also competed in the Olympics, back in 2016 in the women's 800m track event, winning gold. The silver and bronze medals were taken by males too. Khelif does not identify as trans, and described such accusations as "a big shame for my family, for the honor of my family, for the honor of Algeria, for the women of Algeria and especially the Arab world." | | |
| ▲ | immibis 5 days ago | parent [-] | | So you do not believe that a penis or vagina makes someone a man or a woman? |
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| ▲ | Manuel_D 6 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The Algerian boxer was born female, but has high testosterone due to whatever medical condition, Imane Khelif has an X and a Y chromosome. She has 5-alpha reductase deficiency, which leads to the development of a pseudo-vagina and internal testicles. Crucially, though, the hormone levels are the same as typical males. In terms of upper body strength, red blood cell count, bone density, etc. Khelif is the same as other males. She wasn't disqualified due to hormone levels. She was disqualified because the International Boxing Association's criteria for participating in the women's category is having a female karyotype (no Y chromosome). > Do you want sports governing bodies to inspect genitalia? Do blood tests? Chromosomes can be checked with just a mouth swab. |
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| ▲ | foldr 7 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| That's a potential option, but a lot of anti-trans folks wouldn't be happy with that either. It also doesn't solve the theoretical problem of fairness, since trans men on testosterone (who presumably compete in the 'open' category in your model?) might have significant physical advantages over cis women in some sports. I don't think there are any glib solutions to the issue of gender in sport. The current moral panic about trans people certainly won't go any way to help with solving it. |
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| ▲ | fonfont 7 days ago | parent [-] | | Female athletes taking testosterone, regardless of if they believe themselves to be men or not, would be excluded from competition for doping. | | |
| ▲ | foldr 7 days ago | parent [-] | | Another layer of complexity to consider. Some of those rules may need to change to enable full participation of trans athletes. I do not have a fixed view on what the rules should be. I'm just saying it's complicated. | | |
| ▲ | fonfont 7 days ago | parent [-] | | Or maybe those that take performance-enhancing drugs will just have to accept that their body modification choices preclude participation in competitive sport. There are trans-identifying female athletes who don't take testosterone and compete in women's sports, recent example in the last Olympics being Hergie Bacyadan in women's boxing. There's no exclusion on participation as long as the same rules as for everyone else are followed. | | |
| ▲ | foldr 7 days ago | parent [-] | | Again, you’re just highlighting the fact that trans people’s bodies are very variable and that this is a complex issue. There isn’t a simple, obvious solution that everyone (currently) agrees is fair. The current rules around trans athletes receiving testosterone as part of gender affirming care are quite complex and variable. I don’t have a take on exactly what the rules should be. I’m just making the point that there are no easy solutions. |
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