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fc417fc802 a day ago

I'd be curious how it came to pass that 40k people were living within the blast radius of a plant processing toxic chemicals. Isn't this sort of thing the primary justification for the existence of zoning laws?

Legend2440 a day ago | parent | next [-]

The plant has been around since at least the 1970s. At the time it likely was on the edge of town, but through 50 years of urban sprawl, the town grew around it.

It may be even older than that. My source for the age of the site is this 1970 NASA ALSEP supplier list (from the moon program!), which lists the address as an approved manufacturer on page 38: https://www.lpi.usra.edu/lunar/ALSEP/pdf/31111000671279.pdf

crote a day ago | parent [-]

Surely they've had to get new permits over time as their operations changed? And why didn't the presence of the plant prevent the town from growing around it?

There's a home 430 feet away from it. At that point you didn't even try to create a buffer zone.

Legend2440 a day ago | parent | next [-]

Their operations have not changed very much. They have always made acrylic windshields for airplanes.

This area is zoned as an industrial park, which doesn't require buffer zones. Probably city planners at the time just thought of them as a windshield manufacturer and didn't realize the potential risks.

ssl-3 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I can't link to it directly because Historic Aerials[1] hates direct links, but for those following along at home: The address of the leak seems to be 12122 Western Ave, Garden Grove, CA.

The leak itself seems to be centered around a round tank near a curve on a railroad, betwixt Lampson and Chapman avenues[2].

That plant and its tank, or a tank very similar similar to it, seems to have been built between between 1963 and 1972.

The houses near the tank were built prior to 1963. At that time when the houses were built nearby, the area where the plant is now located was undeveloped agricultural land.

Therefore, in this particular instance: It sure seems like they built the plant next to the neighborhood, instead of the people building houses next to the plant.

I'm reluctant to blame the homeowners, here -- at all. They were here first.

[1]: https://www.historicaerials.com/ -- awesome site, just not very compatible with WWW norms and never really has been

[2]: Google Maps direct link with current-ish aerials -- useful, at least, for orientation on Historic Aerials: https://www.google.com/maps/place/12122+Western+Ave,+Garden+...

---

BIG FAT EDIT: I figured out how to get something close to useful, direct links to Historic Aerials.

Here's 1963. Note the presence of houses, and the absence of a manufacturing plant: https://www.historicaerials.com/location/33.7836372593042/-1...

Here's the same spot in 1972. Note that the houses are still there, and a manufacturing plant (with a tank!) has popped up to the West: https://www.historicaerials.com/location/33.7836372593042/-1...

bpodgursky 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This attitude is why all our manufacturing moved to China.

Why is the factory's fault that people built houses right up to the edge of of the industrial site? Are you seriously suggesting they should have been shut down because people decided to build houses near an established industrial plant?

collinmcnulty 20 hours ago | parent [-]

I think the parent comment is suggesting that residential units should not be allowed to be built around it, rather than that once someone builds a house around it the plant has to shut down.

ssl-3 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think that's what they're suggesting, as well.

However: In this instance, the residential units were present before the plant was. I covered the apparent timeline some here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48254291

bpodgursky 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

"Surely they've had to get new permits over time as their operations changed"

I think your reading is very generous — this clearly implies that the factory should have had their operations at best frozen once the surrounding area was built out.

fc417fc802 18 hours ago | parent [-]

"As their operations changed" implying that perhaps the tanks weren't there when the houses were built.

Alternatively the tanks predate the houses in which case allowing housing so close to them seems highly questionable.

However given the long history of acrylic it's entirely possible that both the tanks and the housing predate modern safety practices in which case there's really not much to complain about. That possibility hadn't occurred to me when I first posted because I hadn't been aware of the history of the area.

Edit: And in the time it took me to write that someone else posted historic evidence that the houses were there before the plant. However it was the 1960s so safe bet that safety standards weren't what they are now.

ssl-3 17 hours ago | parent [-]

The houses were there before the tank-in-question showed up.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48254291

fc417fc802 17 hours ago | parent [-]

It is your comment that my edit was referring to after all.

ssl-3 17 hours ago | parent [-]

I replied to you before I saw your edit.

Time is funny that way sometimes.

Cheers. :)

Aloha a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The actual site of the tank is 33.78356416377991, -117.99993897629278 [1] - its in an industrial park, and its not a large scale chemical manufacturing facility.

Its 'light manufacturing' for a company that makes custom formed acrylics for aerospace.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/33°47'00.8%22N+117°59'59.8...

crote a day ago | parent | next [-]

Perhaps "light manufacturing" is the wrong classification for this kind of business, then. Most of their neighbors are distribution warehouses, or companies doing machining or sheet metal pressing - if you ask me those are more in line with the definition of "light manufacturing" than the 7,000 gallon runaway exothermic reaction we're seeing here.

fc417fc802 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I get that, but the reality is that 40k people were evacuated. Shouldn't zoning be set up so as to prevent that? Light manufacturing in general is fine but it seems like these particular storage tanks might have been a bit too large for that location.

bonsai_spool a day ago | parent | next [-]

> I get that, but the reality is that 40k people were evacuated. Shouldn't zoning be set up so as to prevent that?

It's funny that you would suggest this about California, where it is notoriously hard to build things.

Accidents happen, it's not obvious that this was a forseeable outcome (happy for corrections from folks who have expertise in this area).

bombcar a day ago | parent | next [-]

California isn't notoriously hard to build in - that's a result of it being incredibly conservative - not politically, but "anything that's built can remain forever, nothing new can be built" conservative.

thephyber 21 hours ago | parent [-]

You’re trying to make a distinction without a difference.

It’s notoriously difficult to build here BECAUSE of NIMBYs, house values preservation, “preservation of character”, CEQA (a state law that gives LOTS of different people who shouldn’t have this power an effective veto for any new construction).

nine_k 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Since the plant was around long before the homes, the homes were built around it. Zoning laws, if they existed then, should have prevented the homes from building, not the plant.

Aloha 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Grew up there, the plant wasn't there first, probably around the same age.

thephyber 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I have seen this claim (the plant was there first), but I can’t find a source.

The nearest houses were built in 1958 according to Zillow.

jeffbee 21 hours ago | parent [-]

The earliest photo in Google Earth is 1984 and at that time the site is already totally surrounded by houses for miles.

KennyBlanken 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There really isn't such a thing as an "accident." There are mistakes.

You design equipment, procedures, monitoring, training etc to account for the possibility of human error. Like computer security, you build systems with layers of fault tolerance and ways of minimizing risk or consequences.

Go watch the CSB youtube channel for a few hours and you'll see that basically none of these are "accidents" and most of them involve severe facepalm you-gotta-be-kidding-me situations.

From watching a lot of the videos, the causes seem to boil down to:

- poor training, either in the dangers of what workers were working with, signs of things going wrong, or how to handle things going wrong

- management / supervisors either tolerating or outright encouraging corner-cutting for the sake of productivity

- lots of looking-the-other-way especially in communities where the plant in question is the biggest, or only, employer around. If you're seen as someone who complains about safety issues, and you get fired - you don't have many other options for other places to work. If you complain and cause a work stoppage and people lose income, you're going to be mighty unpopular, fast.

- poor maintenance and upkeep

- badly designed, insufficient, flaky, or outright failed monitoring equipment that is ignored/tolerated

- poor emergency response planning

- people trying to "save" a situation, or waiting to act, because the corrective action would cause a lot of downtime, or wrecked material/product

- improper materials used for storage/handling (I exaggerate, but think: plastic seals on valve of a tank that someone pumps acetone into. acetone leaks through valve into another tank full of stuff that acetone Reacts Poorly To. Material incompatibility is featured in a lot of CSB videos)

Often it's multiple of the above. Say - something that should have been minor wasn't caught because Bob was poorly trained. It would have been OK if the monitoring system alarm rang at the security desk, but they moved the desk and the alarm is now in an accountant's office. Even then, if they had been checking the pressure relief pipe as part of their regular maintenance, they would have found it was blocked by an Eastern Spotted Wombat's nest, and the blockage meant the tank couldn't drain, and kaboom. That's basically how a lot of the CSB investigations play out. The US chemical industry is a barely-regulated clown show and the rest of us pay the price.

The hazards of the chemical overheating are well known. So was the tank's size, and the radius in terms of a catastrophic failure, and the number of people inside that radius. There was no reason they couldn't have had a deluge standpipe to douse the exterior of the tank.

There's a chemical that can bring the stuff under control by injecting it into the tank. It sounds like it wasn't stored on-site but was brought in by a "response team" that arrived well after the whole mess started. Given the danger level to the surrounding population people on-site should have been trained in emergency response, and that chemical should have been readily accessible if not part of a connected system where a button push or valve opening would disperse the counteragent.

The valves they could have used to inject the chemical were stuck shut. I saw someone claim it was because of the pressure, but it feels pretty laughable that the pressure in the tank was high enough to cause the valves to stick, but not high enough to cause the tank to rupture. From watching a lot of CSB videos, I can almost guarantee that if it gets investigated (Trump has wiped out almost all of the CSB) investigators will find the valves were poorly maintained.

There's also no excuse for them not having a contingency plan to do something like using a self-piercing device to pierce either the tank or a pipe that connects to the tank, and inject it. Self-piercing taps/valves/whatever are used for all sorts of things - it's not some uber complicated technology.

Again: if 40,000 people are within the radius of harm if Easily Angered Chemical goes exothermic, then you need to have solid plans with multiple ways to address it and people ON SITE who can address it.

thephyber 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you are worried about this incident, just wait until you hear about crude-by-rail! Crude is transported through LOTS of residential neighborhoods and zoning doesn’t matter. Additionally, railroads are governed by federal law so states / local munis can’t put additional restrictions on where, when, or speed limits.

ssl-3 16 hours ago | parent [-]

Is crude-by-rail worse for people than crude-by-pipeline?

Either way, our current methods of doing modern human things require crude oil to get from A to B eventually...somehow.

And the pathway this takes isn't necessarily one that is devoid of humans.

(I live in a small city that sees all kinds of rail fright, with many dozens of trains on any normal day. I'm very interested in your opinion.)

jeffbee 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Zoning doesn't protect people from chemicals, it protects white people from black and chinese people, and that has always been its only and avowed purpose.

Also notable that the people who live across the street from the tanks don't live in Garden Grove. By a miracle of local agency boundaries, the factory is in Garden Grove but the houses are in Stanton. Welcome to California.

CharlesW a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That being said: https://www.ocregister.com/2026/05/22/disneyland-and-knotts-...

thenickdude 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

https://xkcd.com/2170/

abtinf a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That area has dozens of aerospace manufacturers, building up since before WW2. People wanted to live close to work. There are lots of homes and commercial areas and industrial parks are tightly mixed together.

Source: I’ve worked in aerospace in Orange County.

kristjansson a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Because greater Los Angeles is the USA's (post-)WWII aerospace hub disguised as a megacity and cultural production center? All sorts of folks spent the 40s-00s (scientifically) blowing stuff up in the hills, and manufacturing the resulting products down in the basin and points south. Those businesses needed labor, which needed nearby housing, and here we are.

ajross a day ago | parent [-]

That's... not really a reasonable characterization of LA's urban growth patterns. To begin with, Hollywood quite clearly predates the aerospace buildout in the 40's and 50's. It was an oil production and refining hub before that, and an agricultural shipping center even before the dust bowl.

This particular neighborhood in Orange County certainly looks aerospacey, but I bet the Disney-centered service workers in Anaheim made up just as much of the population as the industrial folks.

Big cities are big for a bunch of reasons, basically. There are no simple answers at this scale.

anon291 21 hours ago | parent [-]

This part of the OC is very defense heavy.

motxilo 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Watch this https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0090586/

jyounker a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Imagine how often this situation lie this would be happening without institutions like OSHA or the EPA.

Stuff like this happens in Texas on a fairly regular basis, but it rarely ever makes national news.

rectang a day ago | parent [-]

From what I hear[1], we should be relying on the fact that environmental disasters are bad for business in a true Scotsman "free market".

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48238025#48240301

kylehotchkiss 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It should have been in the disclosures for all the home purchases at least, but renters don’t get those (maybe they should?)

anon291 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As someone whose childhood home is in the evac zone ... It's a bit crazy I was living in this neighborhood my entire childhood just waiting for this to go boom

That being said California is very industry friendly and all the stuff about overregulation is from people who don't get California.

gedy a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Doesn't that mean they can bike to work there?