In Spain we have a domestic abuse law that is unconstitutional (different prison terms for men and women) and it has been there for a very long time.

What do you think are your chances of winning this in the constitutional court?

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skissane 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think the issue is, what does "constitutional" mean?

Does it mean "agrees with what I interpret the constitution to mean" or "agrees with what the constitutional court interprets it to mean"? This law is unconstitutional in the first sense, constitutional in the second.

This is not unique to Spain – the US Supreme Court has a long history of interpreting the US constitution to mean a lot of things which aren't obviously in the original meaning of the text. Its recent conservative turn has seen it overturn some of those precedents, but many of them still stand.

Spain's constitutional court – much like the US Supreme Court – is a politicised body – if one doesn't agree with its jurisprudence, the answer is to vote for parties who will appoint judges with different jurisprudence.

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embedding-shape 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Are you talking about "Juzgados de Violencia Sobre la Mujer" or "Organic Act of Protection Measures against Gender Violence" or what are you lamenting? What law exactly and how is it unconstitutional?

If you're talking about that "gendered violence" gets different penalties compared to just "general violence", I think that's less about "different prison terms for men and women" but again, maybe you're talking about something else?

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nekzn 16 hours ago | parent [-]

I’m talking about the LIVG which sets different prison terms for men and women for the same crimes.

Check articles 153, 171, and 172 of the Spanish Penal Code.

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embedding-shape 15 hours ago | parent [-]

It is not a general "men and women get different prison terms for all the same crimes" rule, it applies to specific offences and specific relationship/victim categories. The Constitutional Court has also upheld it, meaning it's quite literally not unconstitutional.

For the people following along at home, parent is talking about "Ley Orgánica 1/2004, de 28 de diciembre, de Medidas de Protección Integral contra la Violencia de Género" AKA LIVG, which is a law containing gender-violence provisions aimed at a specific form of inequality in intimate-partner violence, as we (Spain) has a lot of that.

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Levitz 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>For the people following along at home, parent is talking about "Ley Orgánica 1/2004, de 28 de diciembre, de Medidas de Protección Integral contra la Violencia de Género" AKA LIVG, which is a law containing gender-violence provisions aimed at a specific form of inequality in intimate-partner violence, as we (Spain) has a lot of that.

Which, to be clear, does explicitly discriminate depending if the aggressor is a man or a woman, since it defines gender violence as something that men do to women, explicitly.

You are not even disagreeing. You are arguing in favor of such discrimination and justifying it. This is not the place to argue such matters but the point that generally considering a law to be constitutional or not is no guarantee is more than proven.

	▲	embedding-shape 14 hours ago \| parent [-]
		I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing, nor providing justification, I'm just giving more context for people who might be reading about this and not having the full context or background of the wider conversation. The law does explicitly create sex-asymmetric criminal treatment in these partner-violence offenses, I wouldn't deny this. A man assaulting, threatening, or coercing a female partner can fall under the LIVG-linked "violencia de género" provisions while a woman doing the equivalent to a male partner generally does not. But our Constitutional Court has ruled that this asymmetry is constitutionally valid, because it treats the offense as gender violence tied to structural inequality, not as punishment merely for being male. This is why I think this isn't considering discrimination, and why it isn't unconstitutional. I think the disagreement comes from what actually is discrimination, rather than me being OK with discrimination and others not, or vice-versa. I'm trying to explain the legal situation as objectively as I can, based only on what the legal texts actually say, and I'm trying to help you understand the reasoning of the Constitutional Court here, as obviously they don't agree with this being discriminatory.

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nekzn 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It actually is that. Once again I ask you that you read the articles which quite clearly say what I said.

As you said, despite being flagrantly unconstitutional since men and women are supposed to be equal, the constitutional court said it’s okay to have different prison terms for men and women for the same exact offences.

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embedding-shape 15 hours ago | parent [-]

Having gone through the same tiring conversation with 80% of all the maschistas around me in real-life, then also hearing about it on TV every single day when a new woman gets murded by her ex/husband/boyfriend, I rather not bring in the same off-topic conversation into HN.

It's sunny today, finally getting a bit warmer today and the chiringuito just opened, I'm gonna go have some croquetas de pollo and enjoy the day at the beach, I hope your day will be similarly pleasant!

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nekzn 15 hours ago | parent [-]

I was expecting a better argument than calling me a misogynist and bragging about living next to the beach, but hey what do I know.

	▲	embedding-shape 14 hours ago \| parent [-]
		And I was expecting comments about internet censorship, you don't always get what you want :) I don't think you're a misogynist, just to be clear, different interpretation of laws shouldn't lead us to label people who argue about their point of view.

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luckylion 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I have no idea about that law in particular and no dog in that fight, but I find

> The Constitutional Court has also upheld it, meaning it's quite literally not unconstitutional.

a weak argument when stated that absolute. Constitutional Courts occasionally shift in their opinions over time. If they do change -- has the previous court violated the constitution? Or is the constitution flexible enough to hold opposite viewpoints without being violated? Doesn't it become very flimsy at that point?

I think a better wording would it is not currently considered to be unconstitutional. It might be in the future if the court changes. Naturally that only happens over longer periods of time as old judges die and are replaced with younger judges who were born in a different era and raised with different values.