Remix.run Logo
debo_ 16 hours ago

> I'm sure every organisation has hundreds if not thousands of Excel sheets tracking important business processes that would be far better off as a SaaS app.

Far better off for who? People constantly dismiss spreadsheets, but in many cases, they are more powerful, more easily used by the people who have the domain knowledge required to properly implement calculations or workflow, and are more or less universally accessible.

robotresearcher 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Spreadsheets are an incredible tool. They were a key innovation in the history of applications. I love them and use them.

But it's very hard to have a large conventional cell-formula spreadsheet that is correct. The programming model / UI are closely coupled, so it's hard to see what's going on once your sheet is above some fairly low complexity. And many workplaces have monstrous sheets that run important things, curated lovingly (?) for many years. I bet many or most of them have significant errors.

ASalazarMX 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's astounding how useful and intuitive they are, but my biggest gripe is how easy is for anyone to mess calculations, say, SUM(<RANGE>), by simply adding one row/column/cell.

I use Google Worksheets frequently to track new things that fit into lists/tables, and giving someone else editor access without them knowing a few worksheet nuances means I have to recheck and correct them every month or two.

robotresearcher 14 hours ago | parent [-]

Does anyone make a sanity checker for Excel or Sheets that notices things like that? Would be incredibly helpful!

MrDresden 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This happened not so many years ago, in a certain small European nation, where official government housing valuation numbers were incorrect for some years due to a flaw in a spreadsheet.

I remember my apartment got a ~10% bump in value one year due to this flaw being fixed (fix didn't apply to all housing, just those who were on floors 5 or above).

I don't think though that a SaaS would have solved anything here.

jl6 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Spreadsheets are absolutely the right solution for a great many problems. The important thing to recognize is when a problem has outgrown a spreadsheet solution. That’s usually when you start to use a spreadsheet as a database, or when it has more than a handful of users.

It’s a rare spreadsheet that survives its original creator.

martinald 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Author here. Of course not everything needs to be a web app. But I'm meaning a lot of core sheets I see in businesses need more structure round them.

Especially for collaboration, access controls, etc. Not to mention they could do with unit testing.

tonyarkles 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Counterpoint: if a small part of the process is getting tweaked, how responsive can the team responsible for these apps be? That’s the killer feature of spreadsheets for business processes: the accountants can change the accounting spreadsheets, the shipping and receiving people can change theirs, and there’s no team in the way to act as a bottleneck.

That’s also the reason that so-called “Shadow IT” exists. Teams will do whatever they need to do to get their jobs done, whether or not IT is going to be helpful in that effort.

chasd00 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

i've seen many attempts to turn a widely used spreadsheet into a webapp. Eventually, it becomes an attempt to re-implement spreadsheets. The first time something changes and the user says "well in Excel i would just do this..." the dev team is off chasing existing features of excel for eternity and the users are pissed because it takes so long and is buggy, meanwhile, excel is right there ready and waiting.

thingortwo 6 hours ago | parent [-]

I always see this point mentioned in "App VS Spreadsheet" but no one gives a concrete example. The whole point of using a "purpose" build app is to give some structure and consistency to the problem. If people are replicating spreadsheet feature then they needed "excel" to begin with since that is a purpose built tool for generalizing a lot of problems. It's like I can say well my notebook and pen is already in front of me, I can use this why would I ever bother opening an app? well because the app provides some additional value.

LPisGood 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I have never heard of shadow IT. What is that?

analog31 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's when the users start taking care of IT issues themselves. Maybe the name comes from the Shadow Cabinet in England?

Where it might not be obvious is that IT in this context is not just pulling wires and approving tickets, but is "information technology" in the broader sense of using computers to solve problems. This could mean creating custom apps, databases, etc. A huge amount of this goes on in most businesses. Solutions can range from trivial to massive and mission-critical.

rcxdude 11 hours ago | parent [-]

I think the term is mainly just because it tends not to be very visible/legible to the organization as a whole (and that's probably the main risk of it: either someone leaves and a whole section of the IT infrastructure collapses, or someone sets up something horrifically insecure and the company gets pwned). Especially because most IT departments hate it so there's a strong incentive to keep it quiet (I personally think IT organizations should consider shadow IT a failing of themselves and seek out ways to collaborate with those setting it up or figure out what is lacking in the service they provide to the rest of the company that means they get passed over).

analog31 8 hours ago | parent [-]

That's quite possible. I've done a certain amount of it myself. A couple of programs that I wrote for the factory 15+ years ago are being used continually for critical adjustment and testing of subassemblies. All told it's a few thousand lines of Visual Basic. Not "clean code" but carefully documented with a complete theory of operation that could be used as a spec for a professionally written version.

My view is that it's not a failing, any more than "software development can't be estimated" is, but a fact of life. Every complex organization faces the dilemma of big versus little projects, and ends up having to draw the line somewhere. It makes the most sense for the business, and for developer careers, to focus on the biggest, most visible projects.

The little projects get conducted in shadow mode. Perhaps a benefit of Excel is a kind of social compromise, where it signals that you're not trying to do IT work, and IT accepts that it's not threatening.

There's a risk, but I think it's minimal. Risk is probability times impact, measured in dollars. The biggest risks come from the biggest projects, just because the potential impact is big. Virtually all of the project failures that threaten businesses come from big projects that are carried out by good engineers using all of the proper methods.

_puk 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's where you have processes etc set up to manage your IT infra, but these very processes often make it impossible / too time consuming to use anything.

The team that needs it ends up managing things itself without central IT support (or visibility, or security etc..)

Think being given a locked down laptop and no admin access. Either get IT to give you admin access or buy another laptop that isn't visible to IT and let's you install whatever you need to get your job done.

The latter is often quicker and easier.

swatcoder 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's rare than a third-party SaaS can approximate one of these "core sheets" and most of the exceptions have already been explored over the last several decades years.

You have to remember that an SaaS, just like shrink-wrap software, reflects someone else's model of of a process or workflow and the model and implementation evolve per the timeline/agenda of its publisher.

For certain parts of certain workflows, where there's a highly normative and robust industry standard, like invoicing or accounting or inventory tracking, that compromise is worthwhile and we've had both shrink-wrap and SaaS products servicing those needs for a very very long time. We see churn in which application is most popular and what it's interface and pricing look like, but the domains being served have mostly been constant (mostly only growing as new business lines/fashions emerge and mature).

Most of the stuff that remains in a "core sheet" could benefit from the attention of a practiced engineer who could make it more reliable and robust, but almost always reflects that the represented business process is somehow peculiar to the organization. As Access and FoxPro and VBA and Zapier and so many tools have done before, LLM coding assistants and software building tools offer some promise in shaking some of these up by letting orgs convert their "core sheets" to "internal applications".

But that's not an opportunity for SaaS entrepreneurs. It's an opportunity for LLM experts to try to come in and pitch private, bespoke software solutions for a better deal than whatever the Access guy had promised 20 years ago. Because of the long-term maintenance challenges that still plague code that's too LLM-colored, I wouldn't want to be that expert pitching that work, but it's an opportunity for some ambitious folks for sure.

ASalazarMX 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> a lot of core sheets I see in businesses need more structure round them

We had this decades ago, it was called dBase, but FoxPro (pre-Microsoft) was great too. Visual For Pro or MS Access were a brutal downgrade of every good aspect of it.

Imagine if today some startup offered a full-stack(TM) platform that included IDE, a language with SQL-like features, visual UI designer, database; generated small standalone binarires, was performant, and was smaller than most web homepages.

There are modern options, like Servoy or Lianja, but they're too "cloudy" to be considered equivalents.

Edit: seems like there's OpenXava too, but that is Java-based, too hardcore for non-professional programmers IMO. The beauty of xBase was that even a highschooler could whip out a decent business application if the requirements were modest.

tgv 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Let's not forget: it's pretty unlikely that two orgs come up with the same administration/data-analyis for which they use those spreadsheets, so most of those proposed SaaS applications would have just one customer.

There is of course SAP for common problems.

nesarkvechnep 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I’m yet to see a spreadsheet workflow successfully replaced by something else.

esafak 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Programming in a spreadsheet is an anti-pattern. Does anyone review your workflow? Write tests for it? Use a real programming language; a notebook at least.

crubier 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Streamlit apps or similar are doing a great job at this where I'm at.

As simple to build and deploy as Excel, but with the right data types, the right UI, the right access and version control, the right programming language that LLMs understand, the right SW ecosystem and packages, etc.

SauntSolaire 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Are they actually as simply to deploy as Excel? My guess would be that most streamlit apps never make it further than the computer they're written on.

crubier 12 hours ago | parent [-]

If you have the right tooling (e.g. Streamlit.io) then yes, literally.

To 'deploy' an Excel file I go to Office365 and create my excel file and hit share

To 'deploy' a Streamlit file I go to Streamlit and write my single file python code (can be a one liner) and hit share

8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
tehjoker 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

maybe the strategy in those cases is to augment the core spreadsheet with tools that can unit test it and broadcast changes etc

jimbokun 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Better security. Better availability. Less chance of losing data.

Assuming the SaaS is implemented competently, of course. Otherwise there's not much advantage.

frm88 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I disagree. I have seen many such Excel applications in many companies, paticularly in the finance and controlling departments that were delivering key numbers to the C-class which would never have allowed the sheets, applications or calculations out of the house, let alone to a cloud service or an out-of-company consultant/programmer. There were always backups managed by the department themselves and in one case, even entry to the room with the relevant machine was restricted to authorised personnel only. If I have learned anything in my 30 years of consulting, it's that you always take Finance at its word when they tell you No to your SaaS or ERP solution.

croes 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

And often the are unmaintainable because the original author left the company and the users don’t really know what the spreadsheet does which leads to unrecognized bugs and errors especially in spreadsheets with lots of data