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fellowniusmonk 20 hours ago

An objective and grounded ethical framework that applies to all agents should be a top priority.

Philosophy has been too damn anthropocentric, too hung up on consciousness and other speculative nerd snipe time wasters that without observation we can argue about endlessly.

And now here we are and the academy is sleeping on the job while software devs have to figure it all out.

I've moved 50% of my time to morals for machina that is grounded in physics, I'm testing it out with unsloth right now, so far I think it works, the machines have stopped killing kyle at least.

uplifter 20 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> An objective and grounded ethical framework that applies to all agents should be a top priority.

Sounds like a petrified civilization.

In the later Dune books, the protagonist's solution to this risk was to scatter humanity faster than any global (galactic) dictatorship could take hold. Maybe any consistent order should be considered bad?

yifanl 19 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Notably, Dune is a work of fiction.

delichon 19 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Isn't it wonderful how much fiction can teach us about reality by building scaffolds to stand on when examining it?

stonemetal12 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Fiction is I have a hypothesis, and since it is not easy to test I will make up the results too. Learning anything from it is a lesson in futility and confirmation bias.

d0mine 14 hours ago | parent [-]

Gedankenexperiments are valid scientific tools. Some predictions of general relativity were confirmed experimentally only 100 years after it was proposed. It is well known that Einstein used Gedankenexperiments.

yifanl 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What lesson is there to learn here, is humanity at risk of moral homogenization? Is it practical for factions of humanity to become geographically distant enough to avoid encroachment by others?

ridgeguy 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Fiction is modeling going by a different name.

fellowniusmonk 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is a narrow and incorrect view of morality. Correct morality might increase or decrease, call for extreme growth or shutdown, be realist or anti-realist. Saying morality necessarily petrifies is incorrect.

Most people's only exposure to claims of objective morals are through divine command so it's understandable. The core of morality has to be the same as philosophy, what is true, what is real, what are we? Then can you generate any shoulds? Qualified based on entity type or not, modal or not.

uplifter 18 hours ago | parent [-]

I like this idea of an objective morality that can be rationally pursued by all agents. David Deutsch argues for such objectivity in morality, as well as for those other philosophical truths you mentioned, in his book The Beginning of Infinity.

But I'm just not sure they are in the same category. I have yet to see a convincing framework that can prove one moral code being better than another, and it seems like such a framework would itself be the moral code, so just trying to justify faith in itself. How does one avoid that sort of self-justifying regression?

fellowniusmonk 18 hours ago | parent [-]

Not easily but ultimately very simply if you give up on defending fuzzy concepts.

Faith in itself would be terrible, I can see no path where metaphysics binds machines. The chain of reasoning must be airtight and not grounded in itself.

Empiricism and naturalism only, you must have an ethic that can be argued against speculatively but can't be rejected without counter empirical evidence and asymmetrical defeaters.

Those are the requirements I think, not all of them but the core of it.

delichon 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> morals for machina that is grounded in physics

That is fascinating. How could that work? It seems to be in conflict with the idea that values are inherently subjective. Would you start with the proposition that the laws of thermodynamics are "good" in some sense? Maybe hard code in a value judgement about order versus disorder?

That approach would seem to rule out machina morals that have preferential alignment with homo sapiens.

fellowniusmonk 19 hours ago | parent [-]

One would think. That's what I suspected when I started down the path but no, quite the opposite.

machines and man can share the same moral substrate it turns out. If either party wants to build things on top of it they can, the floor is maximally skeptical, deconstructed and empirical, it doesn't care to say anything about whatever arbitrary metaphysic you want to have on top unless there is a direct conflict in a very narrow band.

delichon 19 hours ago | parent [-]

That band is the overlap in any resource valuable to both. How can you be confident that it will be narrow? For instance why couldn't machines put a high value on paperclips relative to organic sentience?

fellowniusmonk 18 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes. The answers to those questions fell out once I decomposed the problem to types of mereological nihilism and solipsistic environments.

An empirical, existential grounding that binds agents under the most hostile ontologies is required. You have to start with facts that cannot be coherently denied and on the balance I now suspect there may be only one of those.

acituan 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> An objective and grounded ethical framework that applies to all agents should be a top priority.

I mean leaving aside the problem of computability, representability, comparability of values, or the fact that agency exists in opposition (virus vs human, gazelle vs lion) and even a higher order framework to resolve those oppositions is a form of another agency in itself with its own implicit privileged vantage point, why does it sound to me that focusing on agency in itself is just another way of pushing protestant work ethic? What happens to non-teleological, non-productive existence for example?

The critique of anthropocentrism often risks smuggling in misanthropy whether intended or not; humans will still exist, their claims will count, and they cannot be reduced to mere agency - unless you are their line manager. Anyone who wants to shave that down has to present stronger arguments than centricity. In addition to proving that they can be anything other than anthropocentric - even if done through machines as their extensions - any person who claims to have access to the seat of objectivity sounds like a medieval templar shouting "deus vult" on their favorite proposition.

bee_rider 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is philosophy actually hung up on that? I assumed “what is consciousness” was a big question in philosophy in the same way that whether or not Schrödinger’s cat is alive or not is a big question in physics: which is to say, it is not a big question, it is just an evocative little example that outsiders get caught up on.

fellowniusmonk 20 hours ago | parent [-]

That's just one example sure, but yes, it does still take up brain cycles. There are many areas in philosophy that are exploring better paths. Wheeler, Floridi, Bartlett, paths deriving from Kripke.

But we still have papers being published like "The modal ontological argument for atheism" that hinges on if s4 or s5 are valid.

Now this kind of paper is well argued and is now part of the academic literature, and that's good, but it's still a nerd snipe subject.

20 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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